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Is Nintendo rushed by time... or simply clueless about their own IPs ?
- Thread starter GhostTrick
- Start date
To be fair, you're pretty much been Mr. Negative Nancy when it comes to Nintendo as of late (more so than Spieler Eins). I may be pessimistic about some things, but even I have my limits.
The pick of the 3DS launch lineup (or at least the only one that still gets mentioned) was a third-party game, Ghost Recon: Shadow Wars. Which, aside from some nice HUD elements hovering in 3D, looked like it was a hastily retooled DS port. Great little strategy game though.
Funnily, GAF doesn't agree with you. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1259391
In the top 50 games, the first Wiiu game is 15th place, and it's a wiiu/3ds game (smash). The next one is 20.
The only truly bad game that nintendo has made lately is Amiibo Festival. Every other "bad" game is either a decent game with a critical flaw or two, or a good game that people hate becuase it isn't what they wanted.
Nintendo has without a doubt rushed some of their titles but they're far from clueless or out of touch or whatever buzzword of the week they get called.
Nintendo has without a doubt rushed some of their titles but they're far from clueless or out of touch or whatever buzzword of the week they get called.
This is obviously explained by differences in opinion and taste; I loved Sticker Star while I thought the GBA F-Zero games were mediocre.
The wait for NX arguments holds due to the simple logistic reason that many of their teams are all unaccounted for and it's fair to assume that they're working on next gen projects given this has been the case in the 30 year history of Nintendo consoles.
Its the tail end if the generation and many of the games mentioned are passion proyects with low budgets ( starfox zero , metroid prime federation force or even the upcoming ever oasis) spinoffs with big proyected sales(Happy Home designer , Triforce heroes) or sequels to big franchises (Zelda BOTW, Pokemon Sun and Moon,Paper Mario Color Splash(yes sticker star sold more than the 2 first paper mario games it was going to get a sequel like it or not ))so yeah its not hard to see why this games are made,nothing baffling about them.
You're actually proving his point; in that particular list 8(!) Wii U titles are mentioned in the Top 50. Smash Bros. for Wii U, Splatoon, Mario Kart 8 and Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze are in the top 25.
lwilliams3
Member
Since Nintendo's handheld and console departments have been consolidated and universal systems are likely in the future starting with the NX, that will address two of the leading reasons on why there was such redundancy.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
What makes Color Splash lack ambition or creativity in fans' eyes? Does the usage of regular Toads really bother you all that much? The game still seems to have the dialogue and quirks of the Paper Mario I'm used to, anyway.
Spieler Eins
Member
Gamers were probably content with the superior offerings on Wii and 3DS, which made at least half of the WiiU library a redundancy, since it did so little creative, new or simply noteworthy things.
Dreamcast had more new IPs than WiiU has high quality games in general. Dreamcast also had some of the most ambitious titles of its time (Shenmue, PSO). This comparison is utterly flawed outside of similar LTD sales. (also, off topic, but if you compare it to DC, you also gotta count 3rd parties, which turns WiiU into a really bad joke)
I just checked 1st party titles with 85%+ on gamerankings, excluding old remasters:
GCN: 13
Wii: 13
WiiU: 6
GhostTrick
Banned
lwilliams3
Member
My impression is that alot of people are mad that the game is more of a sequel to Sticker Star instead of TTYD.
It goes both ways though. This is the first generation I only bought a Nintendo system because the other consoles don't have enough games that appeal to me.
There feels like a distinct lack of imagination in AAA titles. Everything has to be adult and realistic. Where are the AAA mascot platformers? Where are the AAA futuristic racing games? Where are the AAA fairy-tale style adventure games? Nintendo is the only console putting out the type of AAA experiences that appeal to me and a lot of other "core" gamers.
I don't think it's fair to say the game lacks ambition or creativity, but its use of standard Mario characters in their conventional roles is a downer. We already know that the bosses will all be Koopalings, Jr, Kamek and Bowser with no surprises, for example. We're not going to be teaming up with Bowser and fighting a crazy brainwashed Luigi as the final boss, that's for sure.
FlaygletheBagel
Banned
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed how safe Nintendo has played it with their franchises this generation. You can definitely see a real lack of standout, innovative titles in the Wii U library, especially when you hold it up to Nintendo's prior home console lineups:
New Super Mario Bros U
Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze
Mario Kart 8
Smash Bros Wii U
Super Mario 3D World
Yoshi's Woolly World
Kirby and the Rainbow Curse
Wind Waker HD
Twilight Princess HD
Mario Party 10
Wii Sports Club
Pikmin 3
Most of these games are certainly good to great games, but if they're not remasters altogether, they're entries in pre-established formulas that do little to shake up their respective franchises. Smash may be the best and most refined version of Smash yet, but it's still Smash. Super Mario 3D World is great, but it's essentially an HD sequel to Super Mario 3D Land. Kirby is Canvas Curse with a clay art style, and so on. We've seen all this stuff before, it just had a fresh coat of paint on the Wii U. Compare this to the GameCube's lineup, which had the likes of Luigi's Mansion, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, Sunshine, Metroid Prime, Wind Waker, etc. - all games that took risks and did a lot to push their respective franchises forward. Either that or they were altogether new IPs.
As far as OP's concerns about the recent slew of mediocre games Nintendo has been churning out, I think it's probably just a transitional phase and they're just trying to fill the calendar year with something. You can sorta tell that after Smash came out and not even that game could sell Wii U consoles, Nintendo was already starting to transition AAA development away from the Wii U, with only Xenoblade, Mario Maker, Star Fox, and Splatoon (projects that had already been started) making up the last of AAA development. Even then, Starfox was largely developed by Platinum so that Nintendo's teams could be freed up for the NX. Then they probably started a bunch of rush projects in order to fill the last of the Wii U/3DS's life.
Truthfully though, I wish Nintendo had just come out towards the end of last year and said they were done making Wii U and 3DS games, and all first party games would be moved to the NX to give them proper development time. Unrealistic and makes no business sense on their part (and not exactly thrilling to people who were still hoping for 3DS and Wii U support), I know, but I'd rather have nothing in the Starfox/Metroid Prime/Paper Mario/Mario Tennis/Animal Crossing/Zelda franchises than a collection of average to abysmal spinoffs and straight garbage.
Nintendo hasn't historically only released 10/10 games. My thoughts on each below, I respect your opinion but I agree on some but not others.
Star Fox Zero: ok reviews, lots of content though so certainly not rushed.
Metroid Prime Federation Force: ok reviews and AFAIK plenty of content. Plus, this one had people predisposed against it strongly so I'm surprised it didnt review worse.
Zelda Triforce Heroes: incredible game and wildly under-appreciated despite some significant flaws. Not at all rushed feeling to me and packed to the brim with content. As with Fed Force I think this one is very tough for reviewers to review because I doubt most outlets can spare 3 people for a full campaign at rhe minimum and as I understand it it's
Paper Mario Color Splash, as you said, isnt out and looks at minimum to answer some concerns about sticker star, which I loved but I do understand people's issues with it.
Chibi-Robo Zip Lash, middling reviews but a new genre for the property and devs and nonreviewer impressions appeared fairly positive. As I understand it has a lot of content as well.
Mario Tennis Ultra Smash and AC festival - these games sadly reinforce an idea of cheap cash-ins.
In the meantime, Nintendo has also recently released BOXBOXBOY which was met with decent praise, Robobot which was met with considerable praise, and #FE which was met with considerable praise. Oh and regular old FE as well. And TPHD. So I think those games are easily forgotten but are worth noting as they make this trend potentially less of one, even if a person falls on the side of finding all of the polarizing games mentioned above to be unfavorable. And just before all these games we got Splatoon, Kirby and Yoshi which were all superb. Mario Maker and Style Savvy as well.
The bottom line for me though is that in a sense most of these are filler or smaller games because for a year or more we've been seeing Nintendo shift focus to NX development and have to devote much smaller resources to their console and HH. Despite Having to do so I think they've honestly done a very good job filling these gaps with non-AAA (by this I mean Nintendo's version of AAA) games, some of which have been polarizing but plenty of which haven't.
Star Fox Zero: ok reviews, lots of content though so certainly not rushed.
Metroid Prime Federation Force: ok reviews and AFAIK plenty of content. Plus, this one had people predisposed against it strongly so I'm surprised it didnt review worse.
Zelda Triforce Heroes: incredible game and wildly under-appreciated despite some significant flaws. Not at all rushed feeling to me and packed to the brim with content. As with Fed Force I think this one is very tough for reviewers to review because I doubt most outlets can spare 3 people for a full campaign at rhe minimum and as I understand it it's
Paper Mario Color Splash, as you said, isnt out and looks at minimum to answer some concerns about sticker star, which I loved but I do understand people's issues with it.
Chibi-Robo Zip Lash, middling reviews but a new genre for the property and devs and nonreviewer impressions appeared fairly positive. As I understand it has a lot of content as well.
Mario Tennis Ultra Smash and AC festival - these games sadly reinforce an idea of cheap cash-ins.
In the meantime, Nintendo has also recently released BOXBOXBOY which was met with decent praise, Robobot which was met with considerable praise, and #FE which was met with considerable praise. Oh and regular old FE as well. And TPHD. So I think those games are easily forgotten but are worth noting as they make this trend potentially less of one, even if a person falls on the side of finding all of the polarizing games mentioned above to be unfavorable. And just before all these games we got Splatoon, Kirby and Yoshi which were all superb. Mario Maker and Style Savvy as well.
The bottom line for me though is that in a sense most of these are filler or smaller games because for a year or more we've been seeing Nintendo shift focus to NX development and have to devote much smaller resources to their console and HH. Despite Having to do so I think they've honestly done a very good job filling these gaps with non-AAA (by this I mean Nintendo's version of AAA) games, some of which have been polarizing but plenty of which haven't.
Diprosalic
Banned
wrong Tropical Freeze is the best 2d plattformer ever and 3DW is an incredible game, so is Bayo 2. Splatoon will be remembered and MM just for the concept alone.
these 5 will stand the test of time.
Jawmuncher
Member
Clueless, or else snake would have been in smash wiiu
Do we know for a fact that Nintendo rejected Snake rather than some other reason?
Doesn't matter if the A-teams are all working on the NX, because just because a game is by a "B-tier," team doesn't mean there's a problem with it (well, except for Federation Force, with that game I assume the team behind it is part of the problem). But with like, Paper Mario: Color Splash? I have doubts that there's actually two Paper Mario teams and one is working on an actual legit RPG for the NX, this is a game by the main Paper Mario team (which isn't a Nintendo A team to begin with). Similar things go for Chibi-Robo: Zip Lash which was mentioned in the OP, there's probably not some Chibi-Robo game that looks anything like the Gamecube original being developed behind the scenes.
I do think there are certain IPs that Nintendo just doesn't know what to do with. I honestly hope Color Splash's inevitable disappointing sales lead them to reevaluate what to do with the IP.
PSFan
Member
Well being a Mr Positive Pete when it comes to Nintendo isn't much better.
TFH is well over a million, I don't think its all that under-appreciated, lol. It didn't do that in a single month, either, so legs and word-of-mouth were good to not condemn the title to its first months sales (see: Twilight Princess HD).
Good point. And I'm not sure I knew that about the sales. Thanks for the info. I suppose I meant more under-appreciated as a quality game by GAF and other online gaming communities. But that is heartening to know for sure. Despite its flaws it has a lot of special qualities to it IMO.
Corronchilejano
Member
If I only knew about Nintendo from GAF threads, I'd know they've been creatively bankrupt since this gen (since three gens ago).
TFH and AC:HHD are the types of games I think aren't really going to get resounding responses on a core forum like this, the latter especially. It also has sold a ton for what it is, and that wasn't to core gamers or gamers who frequent forums.
The usage of normal toads isn't an issue in so far as it's the seemingly MIA original designs- at least compared to other Paper Mario titles.
TwistedFreeze
Member
I think a lot of has to do with the aching pains of working on their first HD console and fully 3D handheld. Doesn't help that the 3DS is entering it's twilight years and the Wii-U outright bombed harder than any other system this gen, thus making them accelerate their plans for their next systems. Hence-why a lot of their late-gen games are rush jobs or re-using assets, albeit the latter has usually lead to good games. It's not like they just magically lost some talent or became slower or something. Hell, this generation is probably why they're going for a single platform with the NX, as they can no longer support two different platforms, especially with as little 3rd party support as the Wii-U has gotten and the weaker 3rd party support the 3DS has gotten
The only thing I think they're being clueless on is their spin-offs, such as Paper Mario. Before, you can expect quality, regardless of whether or not it was a spin-off but, now, I only expect quality from their main games. That being said, some of my favorite games from them have been from this generation. My favorite Fire Emblem, Smash, and Mario Kart is on the Wii-U/3DS and I think my favorite Zelda may end up being on the Wii-U as well, if it lives up to the hype. Nintendo just needs to figure out how to return their spin-offs to their luster and, if they can't, they should perhaps move on to something new, like how we got Splatoon. I feel the same for some of their older IPs as well. I'm far more interested in seeing a new IP from Nintendo than a Star Fox or F-Zero game
The only thing I think they're being clueless on is their spin-offs, such as Paper Mario. Before, you can expect quality, regardless of whether or not it was a spin-off but, now, I only expect quality from their main games. That being said, some of my favorite games from them have been from this generation. My favorite Fire Emblem, Smash, and Mario Kart is on the Wii-U/3DS and I think my favorite Zelda may end up being on the Wii-U as well, if it lives up to the hype. Nintendo just needs to figure out how to return their spin-offs to their luster and, if they can't, they should perhaps move on to something new, like how we got Splatoon. I feel the same for some of their older IPs as well. I'm far more interested in seeing a new IP from Nintendo than a Star Fox or F-Zero game
NinjaCoachZ
Member
A B or filler thing isn't inherently bad. Kirby Robobot was probably easy to make because it was building off the ground established by Triple Deluxe, which was already a great game, so it turned out just fine.
Federation Force was just doomed as soon as it was conceived. No developer could salvage what Tanabe wanted to do with it.
I did mention that Intelligent Systems seem to have stuck with both 3DS and Wii U pretty late in the game. But yeah, it's true Mario spinoffs have been suffering and I don't think there's really one specific factor you can pin it to. All of them (aside from Kart) have become very safe and phoned in, as if Nintendo have reeaaallly strict guidelines for what can and can't be done with the Mario IP or something. But even aside from potential creative dilemmas (e.g. overly conservative design philosophies), the business side of things is probably key to look at too (wrong lessons being gleaned from game sales, being forced to have a Mario game every year as a guaranteed seller, having to make multiple Mario sports games endlessly). Likewise for why they greenlit Federation Force - misguided sense of what direction to take the IP in after the post-Other M hiatus and damage.
It's just a mess and I don't think there's really one answer for why those games are the way they are, but I think it's that both the business and creative sides can split or share certain parts of the blame.
paragonpro
Banned
They are getting as much out for the current hardware as they can on as little of a budget as they can, meaning a lot of re used assets. Id imagine the bigger teams (tokyo EAD, retro) are all fully on NX titles now, and thats likely where the development money is going. Or maybe there new strat going forward is to release smaller games made at a lower cost with the hope of hitting okay numbers? Its not something I want but certainly something we shouldnt write off. Would love to be a fly on the wall at redmond.
ajfoucault
Member
It was. The poor sales show that clearly.
I'd have to say clueless. Even with their cheap spin-offs, you can't help but think the budgets could have been much better spent.
An enhanced HD port of Animal Crossing - New Leaf...would have been better received and sold more than Amiibo Festival.
A 3D port of the original Metroid Prime...would have been better received and sold more than Federation Force.
A straight single player sequel to A Link Between Worlds (ALBW2)..would have been better received and sold more than Tri-Force Heroes.
The software announcements alongside the NX will be very telling. Nintendo needs to start making better choices.
An enhanced HD port of Animal Crossing - New Leaf...would have been better received and sold more than Amiibo Festival.
A 3D port of the original Metroid Prime...would have been better received and sold more than Federation Force.
A straight single player sequel to A Link Between Worlds (ALBW2)..would have been better received and sold more than Tri-Force Heroes.
The software announcements alongside the NX will be very telling. Nintendo needs to start making better choices.
Theanine3D
Member
I don't think it has anything to do with time constraints. These were explicit design decisions made for other reasons.
Paper Mario was dumbed down in terms of RPG mechanics to make it more accessible and distinguish it from the Mario & Luigi series. Star Fox Zero has awful controls because Miyamoto wanted to try proving the GamePad's worth. Federation Force is just an experimental spinoff, spinoffs always diverge from the gameplay in mainline games, it's what they do by definition, it doesn't inherently make them bad, just "different".
I think people are just unwilling to admit that Nintendo is choosing not to cater to them, and they are trying to justify those design decisions after-the-fact by coming up with some other reasoning. Face it, Nintendo doesn't always make the best design decisions. They aren't an infallible developer. They usually make great games, but even they will stumble sometimes.
Paper Mario was dumbed down in terms of RPG mechanics to make it more accessible and distinguish it from the Mario & Luigi series. Star Fox Zero has awful controls because Miyamoto wanted to try proving the GamePad's worth. Federation Force is just an experimental spinoff, spinoffs always diverge from the gameplay in mainline games, it's what they do by definition, it doesn't inherently make them bad, just "different".
I think people are just unwilling to admit that Nintendo is choosing not to cater to them, and they are trying to justify those design decisions after-the-fact by coming up with some other reasoning. Face it, Nintendo doesn't always make the best design decisions. They aren't an infallible developer. They usually make great games, but even they will stumble sometimes.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
Nintendo knows how to make great games, there's no question about that. I think the reason we started getting sub par games from them was because the Wii U wasnt working out and they needed to get something out for the system while they waited for the NX.
As opposed to fantastic sellers like Pikmin and Xenoblade.
BarringGaffner
Member
Didn't Nintendo say they want to continue with releasing b-tier/filler games as they have done on Wii U?
It's sad... Wii U has been the generation that I decide I will never support Nintendo again unless a miracle happens. What an absolute ripoff.
It's sad... Wii U has been the generation that I decide I will never support Nintendo again unless a miracle happens. What an absolute ripoff.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
Pikmin sells fine for what it is. Each of them are million sellers, they don't seem to be major-budget productions, and importantly I think that series gets a bit of leeway because it's Miyamoto's baby.
Both Xenoblade games were pretty modest successes, weren't they? Nintendo really seem to be kicking themselves in retrospect. They really seem to realize what a mistake originally skipping it in NA was. I think it ended up being decently successful between that and the 3DS port.
XenoX is around 300-400k. Not lighting the world on fire but apparently the budget on that game wasn't actually as much as a lot of people think. And well, Nintendo bought Monolith and they're basically dream gigs for Takahashi. Since it's relatively new and is gaining more attention, it's a smart series to invest time in.
Spieler Eins
Member
Going by WiiU sales, right now they are catering to absolutely no one. Or maybe from their perspective, to an imaginary audience that's still enthralled by New Mario Bros. 10 and Miis. So at some point Nintendo are the ones that must accept that people that like things like Metroid should be the first ones to aim for, if they ever want to regain relevance with their own hardware. Because without them, they have nothing after WiiU.
I think that ties more into manpower and interested teams for a project.
Pikmin is a Miyamoto project so it has a team to make them. And since its a Miyamoto project, it gets to be made. It also most certainly doesn't have the budget of a Prime game or probably most of Nintendo's major releases for that matter. The game has very simple models and the environments while pretty are very limited.
Xenoblade is a project for MonolithSoft, who know how to make said games (their whole pedigree is around them), and are a jRPG/RPG for Nintendo's catalog, and the team in general also makes tools for the rest of the internal devs (and help with other projects). Also Xenoblade X, at the least, was on a tight budget.
Metroid doesn't have a team, unfortunately, at the moment. Retro has moved on from Metroid and have their own project now, and Tanabe is lacking a team to do what he wants. Sakamoto has completely moved on from the brand.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
Fair enough.
Theanine3D
Member
I agree.
My point was that they are making poor, but completely intentional design decisions (having nothing to do with time constraint) out of some weird belief that those decisions will widen the audience for those games. Which hasn't consistently happened.
I know Sticker Star outsold most previous entries and that was undoubtedly because people bought it thinking "hey, a handheld Paper Mario game with partners, a great story, and the usual awesome RPG mechanics we know and love!" They didn't know what a disaster it actually was until they bought it. Color Splash won't receive the same benefit of the doubt, people know what they're getting into now.
Thanks, I corrected my post. Should have said "most."
That's absolutely correct. I'm just sick of the asinine "Of course Nintendo won't make a new Metroid because the series doesn't sell", even though that doesn't really hold up when you look at what they do green light.
I don't think they're "clueless" so much as "out of ideas" or "disinterested". I can't imagine a lot of people at Nintendo actually want to make a Metroid game or a Chibi-Robo game.
Also the complaints about "NSMB-ification" are downright bizarre when SM3DW and Sticker Star both had a great deal of variety between levels in spite of the "standard" world themes. Besides, NSMBU is an incredible game, even if it isn't up to the standards people have cultivated in the 25 years since SMW's release.
Posts like this are also really bizarre to me when the WiiU has had some of my favorite gaming experiences of all time, not just this gen... is the lack of Metroid really -that- much of a dealbreaker to people when we have games like Tropical Freeze, The Wonderful 101, 3D World, Splatoon, or Smash 4?
Also the complaints about "NSMB-ification" are downright bizarre when SM3DW and Sticker Star both had a great deal of variety between levels in spite of the "standard" world themes. Besides, NSMBU is an incredible game, even if it isn't up to the standards people have cultivated in the 25 years since SMW's release.
Posts like this are also really bizarre to me when the WiiU has had some of my favorite gaming experiences of all time, not just this gen... is the lack of Metroid really -that- much of a dealbreaker to people when we have games like Tropical Freeze, The Wonderful 101, 3D World, Splatoon, or Smash 4?
That makes sense to me for HHD, but as a Zelda superfan I have trouble wrapping my head around people not loving at least wide swaths of TFH. But I guess I can understand better why that is when I really stop and think about how maddening some of the game's flaws can be. Anyway, I'm sure you're right. Just handt thought about it that way. Thank you.
How many more times can they fuck up before they realize this is the case? They got enough money in the bank to go for several more years.
I should point out Super Paper Mario sold the most by quite a bit.