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Lucasfilm desperately needs new leadership
- Thread starter EviLore
- Start date
BlackTron
Member
This was my thinking. For her to get fired, someone at Disney would need to have a problem with the job she is doing. Most likely, she is doing exactly the job she was intended to do.
There is some disparity between shareholder woes and agenda, which is why you have this crusade against the "toxic fans", that is, the problem isn't Star Wars, its the fanbase. But I think the goal was always to push an agenda first and make money second.
diunxx
Member
They have no merits at all, even most of the amazing cast was phoning it in thanks to the awful direction and the incredibly bad script
Tams
Member
Wrong.
The prequels captured the 'essence' of Star Wars, refined it even.
Yes, the directing of the actors and the dialogue was dire. But, due to the strength of the world building, the films were still good.
The sequels have no redeeming features bar a few good actors and the storyline of the Stormtrooper going rogue... that was then entirely wasted.
I ended up watching the prequel trilogy in its entirety yesterday. It's the first time in 18 years.
Ultimately I'm struck by how much care and effort was put into constructing this story. Lucas clearly researched Ancient Rome to draw from not only the last days of the Republic but also the several hundred years leading up to it. He drew from Shakespeare for the doomed love story between Anakin and Padme. Yes, the politics and trade disputes are a bit dry at times--see House of the Dragon for how to maintain tension and audience engagement during political intrigue--but they succeed in fleshing out the setting and making it feel real and far bigger than the individual characters existing within it, despite those characters' importance and influence on events.
Lucas deliberately crafted all the characters to be deeply flawed and complex, as humans are, which ran the risk of alienating fans who were accustomed to the archetypical Hero's Journey arc of the OT. Obi-Wan is not the right teacher for Anakin at all, and his own ego and insecurity get in the way of raising him well. Anakin's traumatic past as a slave and his lack of mother and father figures leave him damaged, afraid of losing Padme, unable to find approval from Obi-Wan or the Jedi Council. The Jedi are arrogant, complacent, and blind to their shortcomings and hypocrisy. Mace Windu is a mirror image of Palpatine's rationalizations, which cements Anakin's decision to commit to the dark side. This is heavy, mature stuff.
It also fits well overall with the OT. You can nitpick a few things like the Jedi robes or the youngling training, maybe the midichlorians demystifying The Force too much (though, in retrospect it's not a big deal and just demonstrated the level of technology available during the republic and the methods the Jedi used as a mainstream organization), but overall a lot of care is taken to fit it in logically with the original trilogy while still going in a completely different narrative direction.
I can't dislike the prequels anymore.
Ultimately I'm struck by how much care and effort was put into constructing this story. Lucas clearly researched Ancient Rome to draw from not only the last days of the Republic but also the several hundred years leading up to it. He drew from Shakespeare for the doomed love story between Anakin and Padme. Yes, the politics and trade disputes are a bit dry at times--see House of the Dragon for how to maintain tension and audience engagement during political intrigue--but they succeed in fleshing out the setting and making it feel real and far bigger than the individual characters existing within it, despite those characters' importance and influence on events.
Lucas deliberately crafted all the characters to be deeply flawed and complex, as humans are, which ran the risk of alienating fans who were accustomed to the archetypical Hero's Journey arc of the OT. Obi-Wan is not the right teacher for Anakin at all, and his own ego and insecurity get in the way of raising him well. Anakin's traumatic past as a slave and his lack of mother and father figures leave him damaged, afraid of losing Padme, unable to find approval from Obi-Wan or the Jedi Council. The Jedi are arrogant, complacent, and blind to their shortcomings and hypocrisy. Mace Windu is a mirror image of Palpatine's rationalizations, which cements Anakin's decision to commit to the dark side. This is heavy, mature stuff.
It also fits well overall with the OT. You can nitpick a few things like the Jedi robes or the youngling training, maybe the midichlorians demystifying The Force too much (though, in retrospect it's not a big deal and just demonstrated the level of technology available during the republic and the methods the Jedi used as a mainstream organization), but overall a lot of care is taken to fit it in logically with the original trilogy while still going in a completely different narrative direction.
I can't dislike the prequels anymore.
I'm not sure about this. No large corporation will choose an agenda over money. The only way to reconcile your view would be that perhaps they think catering to diversity now might cost them some money in the short term but will make them more over the long term. But a pure agenda play over profits is just not believable for any major corporation.
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Saber
Gold Member
Which is why I feel this new generation of people is doomed. To trade such a complex movie to one that favors emotions, clear social intentions from the writters and put a god damn Mary Sue in it...people have basically abandoned all of its left of their standarts.
Maybe people just want to be different for the sake of being different or just want that classic "gotcha" because its a woman in the lead, which is a proved fact that nobody has aversion of a female lead but for gods sake put someone good at it with a good writting.
And I aways liked the prequels(and understand why some people didn't). I wasn't fan of SW until I watched the prequels and find those movies goddamn entertaiment. What I did after that? Watch the old ones with pleasure and became interested in the franchise.
Fbh
Member
Yup, at this point the only thing that can get me to even remotely care about a new Star Wars TV/Movie project is if it's set hundreds of years before or after the OT with completely new story and characters.
Everything related to the OT is so tainted now that it's really hard to care.
Also IMO the entire rebels vs empire (or first order) thing has been really played out by now, and knowing it ultimately all leads to Rey and Palpatine having their anime showdown doesn't help.
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Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
The scary thing for me, is that these franchises being run into the ground are irreplaceable.
Noone's done a "better" Star Wars since 1976. Noone's done a better Indiana Jones than Raiders in 1981.
Yes, there has been the whole Superhero thing, but they weren't original properties and the signs of fatigue have well and truly set in on that sub-genre.
My question is simple:
What's next?
I can't see tentpole blockbusterr line-ups like we've had for the last few years being around a decade from now, let alone in 40+ years like the time these key Lucasfilm have been around.
Add to that almost every major genre hit feels like its been remade already!
Being honest, this seems terminal to me. Westerns and musicals were once upon a time the event movies that everyone went to see, and they died out too.
Noone's done a "better" Star Wars since 1976. Noone's done a better Indiana Jones than Raiders in 1981.
Yes, there has been the whole Superhero thing, but they weren't original properties and the signs of fatigue have well and truly set in on that sub-genre.
My question is simple:
What's next?
I can't see tentpole blockbusterr line-ups like we've had for the last few years being around a decade from now, let alone in 40+ years like the time these key Lucasfilm have been around.
Add to that almost every major genre hit feels like its been remade already!
Being honest, this seems terminal to me. Westerns and musicals were once upon a time the event movies that everyone went to see, and they died out too.
TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
Hollywood is going to remain in stasis for the foreseeable future because of lack of talent. Talented writers, actors, production crew, etc. No one has a vision that they've thought through for more than five minutes, and they'll just respond by continually torching franchises that have a pedigree until it bottoms out and the only shit that anyone notices are the things that have actual skill and heart behind them.
It's like anything in the world. Can only go so far up until the guys building the top floor are so high up that they've forgotten the techniques of the guys who planted the foundation and Babel comes crumbling down.
With Blackrock and the ESG score it's quite possible to prioritize "the message" over pure profit because the favorable loans offset the money lost. Disney can take a 250 mill hit on TLM to secure 2 billion in loans at a better rate.
Darkmakaimura
Member
I felt bad for the actress who played Rose in the sequel trilogy. I heard she's really nice in real life and in a restaurant when people were talking about Star Wars she introduced herself as the actress and had her picture taken with them. So she seemed to loved the fan base but she unfortunately got a lot of shit and harassment from people who didn't like her character. It's not her fault. Blame it on the freaking writers.
0neAnd0nly
Member
Walt Disney would never have done that.
Iger and his puppet Chapek and their newly adopted “everything has to be political and have depth for the TikTok generation” is by far the MAJOR lead behind the absolute plummet into unwatchability.
Nothing is fun anymore. Everything is about the corporations moral messaging!
But in the end its still profitable somewhere. They save interest on favorable rates loans etc. Ultimately its a money exercise either on a short or long term play or both.
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Absolutely, she's just doing her job and wasn't out to destroy anything.
Captain Cringe Rian Johnson tried to relive his high school days over some nerd crush he had to further subvert expectations.
TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
Absolutely, she's just doing her job and wasn't out to destroy anything.
Captain Cringe Rian Johnson tried to relive his high school days over some nerd crush he had to further subvert expectations.
Neat, a character who doesn't belong in a Star Wars movie and a writer that doesn't, either! It's like poetry, it Rhymes
Well, it's semi-hidden market manipulation, not really a free consumer decision. And at scale, no less.
diunxx
Member
What "Essence"? they are terrible movies, with terrible scripts and terrible performances.
Fbh
Member
This is completely anecdotal but since my niece and nephew are still young and into toys I've been browsing the toys section during Christmas time for these past few years and I'm always surprised how there's barely anything from Star Wars in there (at least in the stores in my town).
Baby Yoda seems to be the one thing Disney has made with Star Wars that kids seem to have an interest in (And BB8 but I've seen it less in recent years).
Other than that you just see some lightsabers (mostly from OT and prequel characters) and some legos (mostly from OT or prequel stuff)
ReBurn
Gold Member
Well shot action sequences? In The Last Jedi? The only real action sequences in that movie are the racing animals riding though the casino, Kylo Ren flailing around Force Luke in a tantrum and the fight with the Praetorian Guard at the end.
The Praetorian Guard fight was pretty good with great visuals. But it had Rey being every bit as masterful a sword fighter as Kylo Ren, making it not believable at all. She didn't have the training nor the experience to be on the level of Kylo Ren, reinforcing the whole Mary Sue thing.
They did try to make it seem at times like she was outclassed by the guards, but they dumbed down Kylo Ren into a weaker fighter to make him not seem superior despite his greater level of experience. It's a striking example of the really bad manifestation of the Rey character overwhelming what could have been a great scene.
newtypepilot
Member
These flops are just tip of the iceberg. Their park attendance is falling. D+ is losing subscribers. Recent layoffs at ESPN. The ship is sinking and it's now time for the internal blame game. Grab your popcorns!
Doom85
Member
Um, 2022 saw a 20+% increase in park attendance over the prior year, and it was well known that the recent 4 million loss of subscribers was due to Disney+ India losing rights to cricket matches.
Toons
Member
The praetorian fight is not not at the end, its in the midpoint of rhe movie.
And no, kylo ren completely outclassed her in that scene, and the dudes they are fighting aren't force capable anyway so they already have an advantage.
Kylo ren is shown clearly to be a much better fighter in each movie of the trilogy, and rey already new how to fight before she even left her planet.
I dont see the problem here. Her being competent in battle doesn't make her a Mary sue any more than anakin was a Mary sue for outlying battle droids in the PT. She's tough but she gets completely beaten by kylo in every instance except the one where he has a bleeding hole in his stomach.
The dog fights are pretty good in the movie, and the entire final sequence on Crait is great action wise.
Toons
Member
Nah, all this doomsaying is nonsense.
Theres plenty of talented indivuals working and plenty of talented creative in the industry making good movies. And most of rhe guys who made the movies you grew up enjoying are still working. Ridley Scott, sam raimi, James Cameron, etc.
You have to actively ignore plenty of content to approach otherwise.
Toons
Member
Nah, can't agree with this.
Even if you dont like the new stuff.
Even in a vacuum. I can respect it i suppose but I csnt agree. I am due for a rewatch of both trilogies tho.
It did 400 million dollars in profits. Thats not underperming in any universe. And after that number from theaters, was then one of the highest home video sellers of the year.
The first movie did almost 600 mil in profit.
It was absolutely a success to the studio and by any metric imaginable.
Another thing to note is that, the movies aren't actually that hated in the general audience. Their audience score are all higher than the prequels equivalent on IMDB save for ROTS and TROS.
Theres just no tangible reason for KK to lose her job. Any other company would wish for similar numbers, for something as ubiquitous and divisive as star wars too.
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Ulysses 31
Member
People keep pushing the narrative that it was SW fans driving her away from social media while in an interview she called out the agents and pr teams she worked with telling her what to say, how to act and feel to the point she didn't feel comfortable anymore.
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That’s not the financial situation. Turning a profit for the sequel trilogy is not the necessary bar for success. The sequel trilogy could’ve been written by Seth Rogen and directed by Bret Ratner and it would’ve turned a profit with the fandom desperate for new material, a beloved IP for countless millions of people, and hundreds of millions of dollars in marketing invested.
Disney paid $4 billion for the IP. You don’t pay that much and put the force of everything Disney has behind ongoing promotion of the brand (theme parks, tv and kids shows, events, Disney+, etc etc.) to make some money here and lose some money there. Expectations were much higher and opportunity costs exist.
Those same people probably have Disney Tattoos.
NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt
Gold Member
They should retcon the whole Sequel Trilogy. Put that whole JJ Abrams crap in the trash where it belongs
TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
We're losing entertainment icons faster than they're being replaced. I'm absolutely sure I could inundate myself with fantastic contemporary cinema, but I'm not a film enthusiast, and linking to my point, none of what filters into the mainstream lately is looking like it's gonna turn me into one.
Tams
Member
Inability to take responsibility and control.
Yes, as an unknown actress she was in a far weaker position, but she should have seen how bad her character looked from miles away and complained to and about the director.
Would that have likely gotten here fired? Yes. But as it is, she gets vitriol (that mostly the director deserves) for just accepting it.
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Tams
Member
Yes, the world of Star Wars.
You know, the bit that creates a lasting fandom.
The prequels had fantastic world building and the characters were second to that.
The sequels focus on the characters, and by doing it so badly for almost all of them, are shit. And then there's no good world building for the films to fall back on.
But hey, enjoy your Mary Sue and token characters that are written like a bad young adult novel. Thanks for encouraging the missed and only opportunities we had to get some good sequels with the original cast.
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BadBurger
Is 'That Pure Potato'
Fun thread. I agree with a lot, disagree with a lot.
Personally, I think at the end of the day no one should be blaming any of the actors for anything about the ST. While I enjoyed Force Awakens, the next two films were victims of first horrific writing and direction, then too much studio interference in an attempt to course correct. And some of the actors like Kelly Marie Tran don't deserve any of the weird-ass hate they've gotten for seemingly just existing.
The PT were good fun. Especially Revenge of the Sith. They were products of their time and hence flawed in predictable ways, sure, but not as bad as many make them out to be.
At the end of the day there's going to be more billion dollar movies. More random TV hits like The Mandalorian. Regardless of who is helping to shepherd this vehicle.
Personally, I think at the end of the day no one should be blaming any of the actors for anything about the ST. While I enjoyed Force Awakens, the next two films were victims of first horrific writing and direction, then too much studio interference in an attempt to course correct. And some of the actors like Kelly Marie Tran don't deserve any of the weird-ass hate they've gotten for seemingly just existing.
The PT were good fun. Especially Revenge of the Sith. They were products of their time and hence flawed in predictable ways, sure, but not as bad as many make them out to be.
At the end of the day there's going to be more billion dollar movies. More random TV hits like The Mandalorian. Regardless of who is helping to shepherd this vehicle.
Fbh
Member
The best thing the prequels did IMO was to give a different, fresh view into the world of Star Wars.
We got to see the world before the empire, we got to see what the Jedi were like when still in a position of power, we got to see beautiful cities like Naboo and big metropolises like Coruscant which was a big contrast to the more remote and rundown locations of the OT.
It introduced tons of new ships and gadgets and the battle droids, fun new concepts like pod racing and, even if some people don't like it, it completely changed the way we look at Jedi fighting with faster, more theatrical and over the top fights that many people enjoyed.
We got a story about the downfall of Anakin and the republic
from a perspective where the "good guys" start in a position of power and get it taken away from them through deceit and political manipulation (and eventually violence) as opposed to another story about the underdogs trying to beat the big authoritarian rulers.
With the sequels I feel like I didn't get anything new, and what little was there was bad. TFA basically begins with an identical status quo of A new hope except the Empire is called the first order and all the characters are worse.
As I said in an earlier post I think the whole rebels vs empire thing has gotten old. It took Lucas 3 movies to move past that, meanwhile the whole new trilogy is rebels vs empire, Rogue One is rebels vs empire, Andor is rebels vs empire, The Mandalorian is about Mando keeping Grogu safe from the empire (often teaming up with rebels), Obi Wan is rebels vs empire, etc
YuLY
Member
Maybe not truly better, but as close as you can get: The Mummy 1. In a lower tier you can also add National Treasure 1 (lower tier, relax).
The harsh reality is we never got a real alternative to Star Wars as a space opera. There have been some shows, and some movies, I guess Star Trek is closest, but its just not the same vibe. One can make the case for Guardians of the galaxy but its less political, more superhero style. Hollywood is boring, instead of coming up with new interesting universes they keep doing remakes/reimaginations.
Remember in 1997 when we randomly got that cool cyberpunk, space opera-inspired movie with Bruce Willis called The Fifth Element? Korben Dallas multipass?? what happened to making movies like that....
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NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt
Gold Member
There's 40k, but that's a more adult and violent alternative
YuLY
Member
Yes it qualifies, I love the universe, but we didnt get movies did we? I think theres just some low budget animated ones.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
The greatest contribution of the sequel trilogy is to make people think the prequel trilogy was good.
It really wasn’t. But at least you can admire Lucas’s desire to tell a complex story with complex characters. He couldn’t actually do it, but at least he gave it a go.
Neither prequel trilogy nor sequel trilogy come anywhere near close the quality of the original trilogy.
This is because that’s the actual story… not a backstory, nor a poor repeat.
It really wasn’t. But at least you can admire Lucas’s desire to tell a complex story with complex characters. He couldn’t actually do it, but at least he gave it a go.
Neither prequel trilogy nor sequel trilogy come anywhere near close the quality of the original trilogy.
This is because that’s the actual story… not a backstory, nor a poor repeat.
YuLY
Member
Eh, I dont agree. Some people just cant accept that the prequels are good. They only have one mediocre movie (Attack of the Clones), but it still works ok when watching the entire trilogy. The OG one wasnt perfect, I would go so far as to say Ep 6 is mediocre. Yes The Empire Strikes back is great, but so is The Revenge of the Sith which is my fav SW movie. I still get chills thinking about the scene where Anakin is pondering what to do if he must save Padme if he wants to join palpatine, with that eerie music in the background and the Coruscant futuristic landscape in the back, phenomenal atmosphere.
^ I'm sorry if some people cant accept it, but the prequels have a great trilogy.
NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt
Gold Member
I'm really looking forward to what Henry Cavill does with the live action adaptation. Him being a fan and him having full creative control is a positive for me. But since it's Amazon, I expect them to Try to screw it up somehow.
Truthfully, I have never gotten into 40k. Always wanted to though. The Lore sounds great and I just got all the The Horus Heresy books on Kindle. I'm planning on getting into the books in the coming months
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BlackTron
Member
I do think that this agenda play is way bigger than Star Wars or even Disney itself. It comes from the highest council of fuckwits that want to manipulate society. I think Disney's short-term ails over Star Wars are nothing in the big picture to these guys. Disney is just one arm/tentacle and we will never get to see the head.
Edit: BTW I don't think it's a PURE agenda play over money. Like the idea WAS to make money at the same time. But they are willing to take significant losses on this i the bigger scheme, absolutely.
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I think reboot is the only thing they can do for star wars and Indian Jones. They could simply just set star wars at a time much further ahead or in the past away from all of the skywalker drama. I don't really have much hope for either movie series though while the folks who work and are in charge of Lucasfilm are still there.
Razvedka
Banned
I don't believe this take at all. They're a publicly traded company, and like any company their "beliefs" are shallow, loosely held cynical things outside of the 'creatives', HR and maybe marketing. They only care about money deep down.
They pursue an agenda insofar as they think it augments, or doesn't hurt at a minimum, their ability to make money. The second they begin to think any agenda is working against their primary objective, it will be discarded.
We see this time and again, but perhaps the best & most recent example of this is Google.
I think the real answer is that the people running things are of mediocre intelligence. They're not geniuses, they're not "plugged in" to the lives of normal people. They're surrounded by a sea of yes men in their ivory towers located in sprawling metropolises. Things that are obvious to me or you are likely difficult for them to conceive.
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FunkMiller
Gold Member
It's all subjective. The prequel trilogy suffers from some poor characterisation, dreadful dialogue, poor pacing, and an over reliance on CGI. Is it better than the sequel trilogy? Of course it is, because it obeys its own internal logic, the story by and large makes sense, and you can tell it was designed as one long story with three acts. But does it compare to the original trilogy? Absolutely not. The OT was a masterpiece of effective, fast paced storytelling, featuring excellently crafted archetypal characters, and state of the art SFX for the time. The reason why Star Wars became such a juggernaut is because of the quality of those first three movies - especially Star Wars and Empire (Jedi has its fair share of issues).
They've never been able to move past the story of the first three movies, because that really is the only story worth telling.
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AJUMP23
Gold Member
Guess what character felt out of place in the movie. And nobody really liked. But taking the saddle off a horse made everything matter.Absolutely, she's just doing her job and wasn't out to destroy anything.
Captain Cringe Rian Johnson tried to relive his high school days over some nerd crush he had to further subvert expectations.
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