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[Schobeleth]

Getting tired that all the attention this game gets is about a pair of tits.

That's the beauty of them - they're natural attention grabbers. I understand loads of people are trying to push the problem to the fore front but it's been going on for how long now, across how many mediums outside of gaming as well?

 

[Jamix012]

The portrayal of women in itself isn't a problem at all IMO. The only alternative to such portrayals would be censorship, and frankly I'm for the right of the game designer and their team to design whatever the hell they want over people complaining how they've been objectified. Mein Kampf can still be bought today and yet there are no loud vocal groups crying out for it's censorship.
No the big gender problem is that there aren't nearly enough female game designers. That in itself means that the artistic vision of games, while perfectly valid, is simply a limited scope of male fantasy. If there were more women in the gaming industry then all the complaints would either correct themselves or be even more baseless.

 

[ChamplooJones]

Why is her ass so big? Seriously. I just noticed it sticks out pretty far.

Is that a bad thing? Dem chocolate malts man, side effects.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Don't be deliberately obtuse. Characters have backstory and history within the lore of their fiction. They have effectively made and will make "choices", just as you have chosen how to interpret the developer's intent.

I'm no fiction writer, but I can empathize with the idea that sometimes the creative process can be very organic, and it can seem like the character demands to be the way they are portrayed in the final product. What may seem silly or contrived in the mind of the audience may seem integral to the creator. These facets may be fleshed out in great detail throughout the course of the lore or through supplemental biographical details. This is understood.

However, though that can be the case at times, what's being argued is that it's very disingenuous to treat all design decisions as legitimate since some real world analog may be plausible. People are reiterating that these characters aren't real people because some people almost seem to be thinking that characters are beyond reproach so long as anyone can concoct a reason why a real person might behave that way. That's often less the case, and it's often more along the lines of somebody going "sex sells, make Cortana hotter."

 

[mnemovore]

The "choice" often reveals the developer's intent, which is also why it's important.

There are several posts above on why Dr. Manhattan is naked. His character made the choice of being naked in the story and has reasons for doing so. I think that's important.

Choice is not important when determining if a depiction is sexist. Anyone can give a reason for any character to be naked. Dr. Manhattan being naked serves the story, and his depictions aren't meant to be titillating. This is true even if there was no explanation given. That's what matters.

Also, what Steve Youngblood said.

 

[JordanN]

Getting tired that all the attention this game gets is about a pair of tits.

I know right? No attention to the awesome male characters.

 

[Pau]

I'm not saying objectification is ok, I'm just saying that she's not purely eye candy. She kicks butt too and is a valuable member of the party in the game. So what's the problem? If it was a game purely about oogling women, then I could see a problem with it.

The problem is that it seems that women can't appear in a game without being super sexualized. There are problematic implications there, but when it comes down to it, it's also very limiting design. Why are people so against diversity in character design and narrative?

 

[Ran Echelon]

I'm struggling to understand why the sexualisation of Cortana/Sorceress is necessarily a bad thing.
I can honestly say that if these games instead featured sexualised male characters, those characters wouldn't appeal to me, but they would neither offend or upset me. Nor would they affect my enjoyment of the game.

 

[GuardianE]

Choice is not important when determining if a depiction is sexist. Anyone can give a reason for any character to be naked. Dr. Manhattan being naked serves the story, and his depictions aren't meant to be titillating. This is true even if there was no explanation given. That's what matters.

I really don't understand how choice is not important. Choice reveals context, and context plays an important role in whether or not something is sexist.

Maybe you're saying that choice without believable rationale isn't important? I'm more inclined to agree with that sentiment.

I'm no fiction writer, but I can empathize with the idea that sometimes the creative process can be very organic, and it can seem like the character demands to be the way they are portrayed in the final product. What may seem silly or contrived in the mind of the audience may seem integral to the creator. These facets may be fleshed out in great detail throughout the course of the lore or through supplemental biographical details. This is understood.

However, though that can be the case at times, what's being argued is that it's very disingenuous to treat all design decisions as legitimate since some real world analog may be plausible. People are reiterating that these characters aren't real people because some people almost seem to be thinking that characters are beyond reproach so long as anyone can concoct a reason why a real person might behave that way. That's often less the case, and it's often more along the lines of somebody going "sex sells, make Cortana hotter."

If that's the argument, then it's unfair to hide it behind a statement like "fictional characters don't make choices," and in such a condescending way.

 

[Ferrio]

I'm struggling to understand why the sexualisation of Cortana/Sorceress is necessarily a bad thing.
I can honestly say that if these games instead featured sexualised male characters, they wouldn't appeal to me, but they would neither offend or upset me. Nor would they affect my enjoyment of the game.

Cortana is blatant pandering to males pure and simple. She has the Ivy complex.

 

[Sissel]

I think the problem with Dragon's Crown isn't that it's sexualized. It's that the character design of the sorceress is garbage. Same for the barbarian chick. They just look retarded.

 

[Infinite_Daremo]

That's the beauty of them - they're natural attention grabbers. I understand loads of people are trying to push the problem to the fore front but it's been going on for how long now, across how many mediums outside of gaming as well?

Free advertising I suppose. I just don't get why the Amazon isn't getting the same amount of flak. Look at this:

That to me is more sexual than the sorceress. Maybe i've just outgrown the stage of life of "look boobies"....

 

[Sissel]

Cortana is blatant pandering to males pure and simple. She has the Ivy complex.

She looks better in Halo 4 than in the others. Who cares if she looks sexier too.

 

[Metal Gear?!]

"There is a difference between a female character your straight male readers want to fuck, and a female character your female readers want to be."

Getting tired that all the attention this game gets is about a pair of tits.

You get more attention when you imply that anyone who calls your immature wank fantasy for manchildren character an immature wank fantasy for manchildren character is gay. That certainly stirs up controversy like nothing else. If they had just owned up to what their character design is - basically the game equivalent of the video covers Baller posted...

...then it likely wouldn't have blown up as it did and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The problem is that it seems that women can't appear in a game without being super sexualized. There are problematic implications there, but when it comes down to it, it's also very limiting design. Why are people so against diversity in character design and narrative?

To be fair to Dragon's Crown it also has the Amazon, who is definitely an underrepresented character design in gaming.

Free advertising I suppose. I just don't get why the Amazon isn't getting the same amount of flak. Look at this:

That to me is more sexual than the sorceress. Maybe i've just outgrown the stage of life of "look boobies"....

She wears less and as you pointed out she even has the more extreme boobs 'n butt pose. However she isn't the same conventionally attractive boneless barbie doll with inflatabreasts and back problems character design like the Sorceress that is sadly so common in other games, and represents actual diversity in character design. In fact, she actually challenges conventionally attractive norms to the degree that she makes people uncomfortable - if anyone is the female Doctor Manhattan, she is.

 

[mnemovore]

I'm struggling to understand why the sexualisation of Cortana/Sorceress is necessarily a bad thing.
I can honestly say that if these games instead featured sexualised male characters, they wouldn't appeal to me, but they would neither offend or upset me. Nor would they affect my enjoyment of the game.

It's not. It's okay for games to have sexy characters. What's not okay is if the vast majority of games have sexy characters. Think of it like any other form of media. Wouldn't it be ridiculous if the vast majority of novels went into a in depth description of women's tits and ass? Wouldn't it be ridiculous if the vast majority of movies had women wearing bikinis?

When we think about blatantly sexualized media, we know that it's divided by genre. Action movies and 70s comedies that are bound to have sexualized characters. There is no such division in gaming. Serious games, wacky games, action games, role playing games, they all have the majority of characters sexualized. As a viewer, we have every right to ask how this serves the product.

I really don't understand how choice is not important. Choice reveals context, and context plays an important role in whether or not something is sexist.

Maybe you're saying that choice without believable rationale isn't important? I'm more inclined to agree with that sentiment.

Context is important, yes. Character motivation is not important because a writer can make any character motivated to get wear skimpy clothing or get naked. If we have a female character who likes to dress sexily, that can either be an asset to the story or it can be a simple means to add T and A. Either outcome can come with the same motivation. What matters is purpose. Sex and the City, while problematic, has a character named Samantha who is a sexual character. This is part of her personality and serves the stories, because it colors how she interacts with others and it helps move situations along. That's different from Megan Fox in transformers just happening to wear revealing clothing.

 

[spandexmonkey]

The portrayal of women in itself isn't a problem at all IMO. The only alternative to such portrayals would be censorship, and frankly I'm for the right of the game designer and their team to design whatever the hell they want over people complaining how they've been objectified. Mein Kampf can still be bought today and yet there are no loud vocal groups crying out for it's censorship.
No the big gender problem is that there aren't nearly enough female game designers. That in itself means that the artistic vision of games, while perfectly valid, is simply a limited scope of male fantasy. If there were more women in the gaming industry then all the complaints would either correct themselves or be even more baseless.

Pretty much. The things stopping women from becoming a force within the industry are the real problems not the sexuality itself. Fighting over these characters is just creating pointless battlefields between people who likely agree on the important issues.

 

[EricDiesel]

What confuses me when this topic gets presented to gamers is this sentiment some people have of "if you don't like it, don't buy it/tough!" as if expression is a one way street. People have a right to create whatever they want, and if someone doesn't like it they have a right to criticize it. No progress can ever be made if there can't be an open dialog.

there's a thread like this every week

And judging by the attitudes expressed in said threads, it's a real issue and a discussion worth having.

 

[Sissel]

It's not. It's okay for games to have sexy characters. What's not okay is if the vast majority of games have sexy characters. Think of it like any other form of media. Wouldn't it be ridiculous if the vast majority of novels went into a in depth description of women's tits and ass? Wouldn't it be ridiculous if the vast majority of movies had women wearing bikinis?

When we think about blatantly sexualized media, we know that it's divided by genre. Action movies and 70s comedies that are bound to have sexualized characters. There is no such division in gaming. Serious games, wacky games, action games, role playing games, they all have the majority of characters sexualized. As a viewer, we have every right to ask how this serves the product.

What serious games have sexy chicks running around in bikinis?

 

[Infinite_Daremo]

You get more attention when you imply that anyone who calls your immature wank fantasy for manchildren character an immature wank fantasy for manchildren character is gay. That certainly stirs up controversy like nothing else. If they had just owned up to what their character design is - basically the game equivalent of the video covers Baller posted...

To be fair to Dragon's Crown it also has the Amazon, who is definitely an underrepresented character design in gaming.

Wank fantasy and man children? Come on! So if I show any interest in this game im a man baby who spanks it to cartoons?

This escalated quickly.

 

[GuardianE]

What confuses me when this topic gets presented to gamers is this sentiment some people have of "if you don't like it, don't buy it/tough!" as if expression is a one way street. People have a right to create whatever they want, and if someone doesn't like it they have a right to criticize it. No progress can ever be made if there can't be an open dialog.

Because the "if you don't like it, don't buy it/tough!" sentiment is the closest thing to an actual solution, believe it or not. The media attention thus far has been mostly rehashed crap. Despite the reductionist attitude of voting with your wallet, it's something that both consumers and companies understand... cross culturally and across language barriers too. It's also the most likely to produce results.

 

[Pau]

To be fair to Dragon's Crown it also has the Amazon, who is definitely an underrepresented character design in gaming.

You're right that the body type certainly is underrepresented, but the level of sexualization isn't. But there's also the other female character (ranger/archer) who isn't sexualized in such a way, if at all. Seems like the character designer gets that diversity makes for more interesting designs.

 

[Ken]

What serious games have sexy chicks running around in bikinis?

DoA5.

I'm a fighter.

 

[Parallax]

Free advertising I suppose. I just don't get why the Amazon isn't getting the same amount of flak. Look at this:

That to me is more sexual than the sorceress. Maybe i've just outgrown the stage of life of "look boobies"....

The most offensive thing about that pic is how she's able to walk. Her spine must be broken.

 

[HamPster PamPster]

More Dragon's Crown discussion? Where was all the attention when Grand Knights History was in localization limbo? Was Vanillaware's art too tasteful then? The assets not big enough? Where was the passion gaf!?!

I'll never forgive you all :outs in corner::

 

[Infinite_Daremo]

The most offensive thing about that pic is how she's able to walk. Her spine must be broken.

Yoga maybe?

 

[Sissel]

DoA5.

I'm a fighter.

fighting games and serious don't belong in the same sentence. When I think serious games I think Bioshock, Half-life, walking dead, etc.

 

[spandexmonkey]

More Dragon's Crown discussion? Where was all the attention when Grand Knights History was in localization limbo? Was Vanillaware's art too tasteful then? The assets not big enough? Where was the passion gaf!?!

I'll never forgive you all :outs in corner::

Please... I don't need to be reminded of it's fate...

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I'm struggling to understand why the sexualisation of Cortana/Sorceress is necessarily a bad thing.
I can honestly say that if these games instead featured sexualised male characters, those characters wouldn't appeal to me, but they would neither offend or upset me. Nor would they affect my enjoyment of the game.

It depends on how you're approaching the situation. Is there something inherently egregious about it? I don't think so, necessarily. I'm certainly not advocating censorship of any of these games, as I would find that counterproductive. For that matter, I wouldn't even necessarily advocate boycotts of the perceived material, as I think it's entirely possible to separate eyeroll-inducing content from fun gameplay.

But what I think what people are often advocating is just better, more equitable portrayals in the broad sense. I don't think it necessarily behooves any activists on this matter to concentrate too much on one character in one game, as it seems has been the case lately with the Sorceress (at least through cursory examination of the topic as of late). But the point is just to cite her/them for illusory purposes as potentially detrimental examples, not necessarily to hoist them up as the worst things ever that have no right to exist.

 

[Gestahl]

What serious games have sexy chicks running around in bikinis?

Heavy Rain is supposed to be, key word supposed, a serious drama and Madison spends most of her scenes naked or in little clothing while fulfilling David Cage's many, many, many murder rape fantasies

 

[Risette]

Cortana is gross, especially after Halo 4. It's not her design, but her design and character.

She is a straight-up AI waifu non-character.

 

[mnemovore]

What serious games have sexy chicks running around in bikinis?

Mass Effect

Edit: Yeah, also Heavy Rain

 

[Ran Echelon]

It's not. It's okay for games to have sexy characters. What's not okay is if the vast majority of games have sexy characters.

Ah I see, and I agree. I was under the impression that those with complaints against these characters were against sexualised females in games full stop.

 

[Sissel]

Mass Effect

Edit: Yeah, also Heavy Rain

and insert any drama where a woman is attacked in her underwear.

 

[Schobeleth]

The problem is that it seems that women can't appear in a game without being super sexualized. There are problematic implications there, but when it comes down to it, it's also very limiting design. Why are people so against diversity in character design and narrative?

I'm definitely not against diversity, I'm just confused why the sorceress is getting so much flak, especially when there are games out there that are way worse in terms of how they portray women.

You're right that the body type certainly is underrepresented, but the level of sexualization isn't. But there's also the other female character (ranger/archer) who isn't sexualized in such a way, if at all. Seems like the character designer gets that diversity makes for more interesting designs.

I think the Amazon is way more sexualized because she's wearing practically nothing, but maybe it's not just the clothing but it's more the body type? Depending on who you ask, she can be a very appealing body type - but I think because she's crazy muscular most people don't consider her as sexualized as the sorceress.

Someone needs to combine the Amazon and the Sorceress somehow and see peoples' reactions then.

 

[Sissel]

Heavy Rain is supposed to be, key word supposed, a serious drama and Madison spends most of her scenes naked or in little clothing while fulfilling David Cage's many, many, many murder rape fantasies

that's not even true. Stop trolling kiddo.

 

[Gestahl]

It's also funny to bring up Bioshock when much of the months long leadup to Infinite was filled with discussion on Elizabeth's character design, with many of her earlier revisions amounting to "Well we were thinking of Natalie Portman from the Professional but with, you know, giant double d knockers"

The final design isn't terrible I guess.

 

[michaelius]

The problem is that it seems that women can't appear in a game without being super sexualized. There are problematic implications there, but when it comes down to it, it's also very limiting design. Why are people so against diversity in character design and narrative?

How many movies can you recall that had ugly female chracters without ugliness being main point of story?

 

[Ferrio]

DoA5.

I'm a fighter.

Yes the barbie doll fighting games, first thing that comes to mind when I think serious.

 

[Metal Gear?!]

Wank fantasy and man children? Come on! So if I show any interest in this game im a man baby who spanks it to cartoons?

This escalated quickly.

The Sorceress as currently designed is an inmature wank fantasy for man children. She's currently also just one part of a larger game, but also the most visible part at the moment due Vanillaware calling a Kotaku writer gay just for not liking her.

You're right that the body type certainly is underrepresented, but the level of sexualization isn't. But there's also the other female character (ranger/archer) who isn't sexualized in such a way, if at all. Seems like the character designer gets that diversity makes for more interesting designs.

Yep. And the combination of her unusual body type and level of sexualization challenges, rather than reinforces, current norms, for what it's worth.

The most offensive thing about that pic is how she's able to walk. Her spine must be broken.

Welcome to Escher Girls http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/ (warning NSFW)

More Dragon's Crown discussion? Where was all the attention when Grand Knights History was in localization limbo? Was Vanillaware's art too tasteful then? The assets not big enough? Where was the passion gaf!?!

I'll never forgive you all :outs in corner::

Vanillaware never called a Kotaku writer gay over Grand Knights History character designs.

 

[Kimaka]

How many movies can you recall that had ugly female chracters without ugliness being main point of story?

They said sexualized not ugly. And there are plenty of movies and television shows where there are female characters that aren't hyper sexualized.

 

[Ken]

I think the character designer's intent in Dragon's Crown was to make immediately recognizable silhouettes or outlines of the playable characters, and the exaggerated designs on most of them do that. I doubt DC will have some deep story-telling, character development, or attempts to make the player relate to the playable characters, so it has to resort to the character design for the majority of that character's identity. I guess you could say their kit should be what defines them but unless the DC box has spreadsheets of each character's tools and spells that's not going to be as effective.

Aside from the queen of one of the factions, Grand Knights History's playable characters had mostly normal proportions. At the same time these were characters who were disposable, replaceable, and eventually you sent them off to fight for you while you start training your next batch of troops. Not much need to quickly identify Archer 1 from Archer 2.

On Cortana, there doesn't seem to be a canonical explanation as to why she chose to be naked. She's supposed to resemble a younger Halsey but that doesn't explain her lack of clothes. The AI with the most appearances in the franchise also being the only naked female (while there are clothed female AI in the universe)...I don't know.

Yes the barbie doll fighting games, first thing that comes to mind when I think serious.

I was joking about DoA5.

 

[Sissel]

I think it's funny that teenagers and dudes in their 20s are constantly complaining about women being sexualized in games. Probably complaining more than woman themselves do.

 

[Karkador]

How many movies can you recall that had ugly female chracters without ugliness being main point of story?

So, the alternative to super sexualized is 'ugly'? Can a female character exist who isn't strongly characterized by her looks and a judgment call on said looks?

You're also asking that as if what's "ugly" isn't a matter of taste, as if no one has ever deemed a female celebrity 'ugly' for having sharp knees or some minor imperfection, and also as if sexualization only happens to 'attractive' girls.

But I digress.

 

[Kimaka]

I think it's funny that teenagers and dudes in their 20s are constantly complaining about women being sexualized in games. Probably complaining more than woman themselves do.

And how do you know that everyone in this thread is a guy?

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Cortana is gross, especially after Halo 4. It's not her design, but her design and character.

She is a straight-up AI waifu non-character.

I've actually posted about this before, but Halo 4's version of Cortana is just so fucking bizarre to me. On the one hand, I love that they dispensed with the weird holographic-push-up-bra and gave her a more realistic "curvy" frame rather than the supermodel person she became in 2 and 3. In terms of design, she looks great.

But in context, it's fucking bananas. Watching a perfectly-rendered, perfectly-human (besides the blue) tiny woman run around in a game about a man in green armor who shoots a lot of aliens is weird. The fact that she has individually modeled toes is weird. Her lovingly-rendered hair is weird. There was a level of disconnect with Cortana in 2 and 3 that making her realistically human breaks completely.

Originally, Cortana was practically androgynous, and wasn't so much nude but a half-formed hologram. Her progression through idealized-supermodelgram to pretty-much-literally-naked-persongram is just strange.

 

[Zoe]

The problem is that it seems that women can't appear in a game without being super sexualized. There are problematic implications there, but when it comes down to it, it's also very limiting design. Why are people so against diversity in character design and narrative?

The elf and princess in the very same game are not sexualized at all though.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

So, the alternative to super sexualized is 'ugly'? Can a female character exist who isn't strongly characterized by her looks and a judgment call on said looks?

You're also asking that as if what's "ugly" isn't a matter of taste, as if no one has ever deemed a female celebrity 'ugly' for having sharp knees or some minor imperfection, and also as if sexualization only happens to 'attractive' girls.

But I digress.

Not to mention, you can be sexy without being scantly clad or having huge boobs or such. For example, i'm a huge fan of the girls in the uncharted series, who had a good mix of badassness and looks, without looking like they are walking out of a strip joint or having just had lunch with john carter of mars.

 

[Pau]

How many movies can you recall that had ugly female chracters without ugliness being main point of story?

You're right. This is an issue in other media too!

The elf and princess in the very same game are not sexualized at all though.

That was speaking in general. See my next post where I say Dragon Crown's character diversity is a good thing and even mention the elf character.

 

[Baller. PhD]

Not to mention, you can be sexy without being scantly clad or having huge boobs or such. For example, i'm a huge fan of the girls in the uncharted series, who had a good mix of badassness and looks, without looking like they are walking out of a strip joint or having just had lunch with john carter of mars.

Right, so there's an example of a mass market game that doesn't have sexualized female leads. Some do some don't. Just like every other medium.

What's the problem?

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Why are people in this thread commenting about the Amazon's design based on fanart? You should be using official art for such a thing otherwise the analysis is inaccurate.