Support NeoGAF

[Daneel Elijah]

I don’t understand why Xbox first party games continue to have to cut features, it just makes no sense given how much resources they have access too and these are sequels so it’s not like they are making brand new games with brand new concepts.

They are suppose to be adding on to what’s already been done not cutting back.

Look at Smash Bros games and all fighters games in general and this idea will die pretty fast. It is not easy to be better each time. You have to redo a lot of things so it is easier to let the game out and work from there. Imagine a GTA 6 online compared to GTA 5. It will naturally be barebones in comparison in the first few years. Unless you want all games to be like sport games? With only a few changes each years?

 

[Ozriel]

Series S is really hurting Xbox.

No splitscreen again!

Cannot believe that I used to be a former Xbox Defence League member.

I suspect this joke was funny the first 4 times you rolled it out.

I don’t understand why Xbox first party games continue to have to cut features, it just makes no sense given how much resources they have access too and these are sequels so it’s not like they are making brand new games with brand new concepts.

They are suppose to be adding on to what’s already been done not cutting back.

Lost in all this console warrior nonsense, but the Forza Monthly they just did yesterday showcased a whole bunch of new features and a transformative change to Multiplayer... The biggest change to the franchise in ages. Unsurprisingly, that's not what people want to discuss.

So they aren't 'cutting features'. The new additions should make it even more popular with the community and fans of multiplayer in general.

Delaying a niche feature that most other racing Sims either lack or pay minimal focus to should not be an issue for handwringing and concern. Alas...

Forza Motorsport Promotes Social and Competitive Online Racing

Compete in Featured Multiplayer or relax with your friends in Private Lobbies. This is how we’re approaching multiplayer in Forza Motorsport.

forza.net

 

[StueyDuck]

Don't really care much for splitscreen so can't say I'm all that upset...

But just delay the game and complete it and launch it when it's ready.

We don't need another infinite fiasco.

The driver behind the wheel at MS first party seems to be drunk and asleep.

You just spent 70bil to take consolidate most of the market, I'm sure forza can get some more time to be fighting fit for launch

 

[DenchDeckard]

I suspect this joke was funny the first 4 times you rolled it out.



Lost in all this console warrior nonsense, but the Forza Monthly they just did yesterday showcased a whole bunch of new features and a transformative change to Multiplayer... The biggest change to the franchise in ages. Unsurprisingly, that's not what people want to discuss.

So they aren't 'cutting features'. The new additions should make it even more popular with the community and fans of multiplayer in general.

Delaying a niche feature that most other racing Sims either lack or pay minimal focus to should not be an issue for handwringing and concern. Alas...

Forza Motorsport Promotes Social and Competitive Online Racing

Compete in Featured Multiplayer or relax with your friends in Private Lobbies. This is how we’re approaching multiplayer in Forza Motorsport.

forza.net

No one ever looks at what is being added. Its psychology. Tell someone something is being taken away and they suddenly miss it and are outraged. Even if they never used it. I dont even know if any of the sim racers ive played have split screen. Does Forza 7? Does GT7?

 

[Ozriel]

Don't really care much for splitscreen so can't say I'm all that upset...

But just delay the game and complete it and launch it when it's ready.

We don't need another infinite fiasco.

The driver behind the wheel at MS first party seems to be drunk and asleep.

You just spent 70bil to take consolidate most of the market, I'm sure forza can get some more time to be fighting fit for launch

That's like arguing GOW Ragnarok should have been delayed until Photo Mode was ready to ship at launch.

Seems to me like a poor management decision to delay the game over a splitscreen feature that the majority of players won't use.

I suspect you can achieve the same outcome by delaying your own purchase until they add in splitscreen that you don't care about.

 

[Ozriel]

No one ever looks at what is being added. Its psychology. Tell someone something is being taken away and they suddenly miss it and are outraged. Even if they never used it. I dont even know if any of the sim racers ive played have split screen. Does Forza 7? Does GT7?

Forza 7 has it. Though limited to 1v1 and no AI. GT7 has it but it's been broken since launch, stuck to a crappy aspect ratio and carpeted by fans.
The cross platform Sims Project Cars and Asseto Corsa don't have it at all.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Forza 7 has it. Though limited to 1v1 and no AI. GT7 has it but it's been broken since launch, stuck to a crappy aspect ratio and carpeted by fans.
The cross platform Sims Project Cars and Asseto Corsa don't have it at all.

Yeah just googled it and it looks like GT7 has it but you have to be connected to online and that it has been broken since launch. There's some issue where the second player is always last and cant win the race. Seems completely broken.

 

[transformer]

I don’t understand why Xbox first party games continue to have to cut features, it just makes no sense given how much resources they have access too and these are sequels so it’s not like they are making brand new games with brand new concepts.

They are suppose to be adding on to what’s already been done not cutting back.

So when you stack up these few minor things that aren’t making launch against all the new additions/features/improvements that are in the game at launch, would you say they are “cutting back”?

 

[poodaddy]

OP, it's you again with all the ridiculous emojis. What are you doing man? Why you gotta shit up the Gaf with this TikTok bullshit, get it the fuck outta here.

Thank you Phil !

Christ man, are you a twelve year old girl practicing horrible lip syncing and god awful dance moves to a mindless song sped up to sound somehow even more meaningless? No? Well then knock it the fuck off.

 

[Riky]

Don't really know about what Xbox does for their games but you get a loose loose situation in that case. Either the superior console is not giving all it can give to the users, or most of the consumers get a worse experience than they should (the Xbox one probably sold more than 10 times than the One X I believe). For the Series S it will not change the discussion that much as any advantage it has form a RDNA2 the Series X has it too. So a Tier 2 VRS game will still have more use of that feature with more ram, and as the Series X has more RAM the problem is just moved on. Think of it as if the PS5 does not exist. Would that change any game? They would still either be made for PS4/Xbox One and so be cross gen anyway. And when the cross gen ends we have games that either don't use the best console to the max, or the weaker console is abandonned a little. Devs will always want more power. So either the Series X and PS5 lack a few things( like not enough RAM, cache for the CPU, Raytracing...) or they have too much and the Series S have just enough. In the CPU the S is good. In GPU I can see first parties do the work and surprise us as the console does have the power to do a lot in 1080p resolution. But the RAM... A lot of people does not seems to accept it. We will see what will happen in the next few years. And if I follow what you have said a PS5 Pro would like the One X did in some occasions be the lead console one day. In that case what would happen to the Series S in that scenario for you? Or the Xbox equivalent if they do one ?

I think the sort of developer tech focus angle that is prevelant on this forum is guilty of only using half the reality. The real decision makers are the market and publishers.
Why does no developer say I want to push the absolute limits so my game has a base of a 4070 GPU? Because no publisher is funding that. We see it now when supposedly next gen console exclusives are running on Steam Deck, far less powerful than Series S.
We also have Switch 2 incoming that I doubt will be as powerful as Series S, probably nearer PS4.
So publishers will look at the PC market see where the majority of users sit and want their games to hit the broadest audience possible and Xbox is linked through the GDK and DX12U to that even for first party games.
So I think Series S will last through the 6-8 year cycle that were already nearly half way through no problem.

 

[Daneel Elijah]

I think the sort of developer tech focus angle that is prevelant on this forum is guilty of only using half the reality. The real decision makers are the market and publishers.
Why does no developer say I want to push the absolute limits so my game has a base of a 4070 GPU? Because no publisher is funding that. We see it now when supposedly next gen console exclusives are running on Steam Deck, far less powerful than Series S.
We also have Switch 2 incoming that I doubt will be as powerful as Series S, probably nearer PS4.
So publishers will look at the PC market see where the majority of users sit and want their games to hit the broadest audience possible and Xbox is linked through the GDK and DX12U to that even for first party games.
So I think Series S will last through the 6-8 year cycle that were already nearly half way through no problem.

I mostly agree with this. The problem is that the reality is always moving, and changing. If the Series S was like the Switch, a mega hit? I can see the future happening like you do. But it isn't or at least not to that extent. So I can't just be looking at the real advantages that it has, like the huge potential in the long term with new markets. But also a what consequences it will have for game dev in the next few years. A game like Vampire Survivor does not care of what the console hardware is, only if the console is alive and had consumers ready to buy it. Same to a certain point with games like FIFA, Fortnite... But some games use graphical fidelity as a selling point. And those games will be limited by the Series S. It is a matter of ambition. Different games have different ambitions and the more we advance more games will be limited by the current gen.

For me games like Cyberpunk proves that cross gen is limiting for the studios vision. They had this great game in mind, but they had to made it for last gen consoles and it was too hard to do. I know that the Series S is not that much weaker than the Series X and PS5. But the problem here is that the Series S only true advantage is the price. And if the PS5 get cheap enough to be comparable to it, we loose a lot of what the Series S was made for in my opinion, while still having 2 consoles linked together when each want to do different things. If they had just made a little more efforts, with more RAM maybe the plan would have worked better.

I do agree that looking at the situation from a business perspective is not the same as our gamer POV. But for the Series S to stay relevant for them it has to convince their users not to upgrade to a Series X/ PS5 during that time. I hope that a lot of people want the best version of the games they play and that they will upgrade sooner or later. But it could go your way. We will see.

 

[Three]

I don’t understand why Xbox first party games continue to have to cut features, it just makes no sense given how much resources they have access too and these are sequels so it’s not like they are making brand new games with brand new concepts.

They are suppose to be adding on to what’s already been done not cutting back.

It's the live service game way and when they create a new game they don't always prioritise features that were there in previous games. If that faeture is giving them trouble in development they just cut it

"Never, under any circumstances pull significant numbers of people out of the non-core gameplay work and into fixing issues with the core gameplay. It is much more advisable to cut features or drop production values (more on that next) in that circumstance."

Six common mistakes when moving to live-service games and free-to-play

I'm a consultant in the free-to-play and live-service games -- games-as-a-service -- business, using my 20 years experi…

www.gamesindustry.biz

 

[jroc74]

Those asking who uses split screen, those of us with actual living breathing ppl that come visit or we visit?

Minecraft with split screen is one of the best things about that game. Same for Terraria.

Wouldn't playing split screen indicate that you do indeed have friends and are not a hermit?

Thank you.

Does everyone live alone? Imagine having to buy a whole ass console to play with your kids, nieces, nephews, other family members. A wife, husband, boyfriend, girlfriend.

 

[peish]

missing expected features is a no-no.

IGN video callout earlier and they still do this?

 

[Daneel Elijah]

Does everyone live alone? Imagine having to buy a whole ass console to play with your kids, nieces, nephews, other family members. A wife, husband, boyfriend, girlfriend.

Split screen is often what made sport games (foot, tennis...) and Rocket league worth having.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Microsoft just put out Quake 2 Remastered on the PS5 with full support for every PS5 feature. Activity cards, adaptive triggers, gyro, controller speakers etc.

There’s no basis for some of these scaremongering takes, tbh.

I was replying to this scenario where the PS5 Pro was putting MS out of business.

In reality they probably wouldn't care much what the PS5 Pro was doing because the upgrades would never have the effect on the rest of the consoles that @Fredrik thinks it would, just as they didn't when the majority of PS4 players continued to play CoD on the base PS4 vs. the Pro.

 

[twilo99]

Microsoft just put out Quake 2 Remastered on the PS5 with full support for every PS5 feature. Activity cards, adaptive triggers, gyro, controller speakers etc.

Must be a mistake.. they are supposed to keep games off other platforms, not add to them.

 

[NeverYouMind]

All Microsoft would need to do is add a stipulation to the feature parity that local splitscreen need not be included. I say that as a Series S owner.

 

[Ozriel]

It's the live service game way and when they create a new game they don't always prioritise features that were there in previous games. If that faeture is giving them trouble in development they just cut it

"Never, under any circumstances pull significant numbers of people out of the non-core gameplay work and into fixing issues with the core gameplay. It is much more advisable to cut features or drop production values (more on that next) in that circumstance."

Six common mistakes when moving to live-service games and free-to-play

I'm a consultant in the free-to-play and live-service games -- games-as-a-service -- business, using my 20 years experi…

www.gamesindustry.biz

Forza Motorsport has been a live service franchise for a decade now.

Deprioritizing a niche feature while focusing on transformative changes to improve multiplayer is now a ‘mistake’?

Those asking who uses split screen, those of us with actual living breathing ppl that come visit or we visit?

Minecraft with split screen is one of the best things about that game. Same for Terraria.


Thank you.

Does everyone live alone? Imagine having to buy a whole ass console to play with your kids, nieces, nephews, other family members. A wife, husband, boyfriend, girlfriend.

There are tons of games in genres where the split screen experience is essential.
On the face of things, it does seem like that’s no longer the case for Sim racers.

missing expected features is a no-no.

IGN video callout earlier and they still do this?

They should have seen the IGN video and quickly rounded up all their devs to drop everything else to push out a feature the majority of their playerbase won’t use?

 

[DaGwaphics]

All Microsoft would need to do is add a stipulation to the feature parity that local splitscreen need not be included. I say that as a Series S owner.

Really they could just leave it all exactly as it is and allow themselves to be the arbitrators of when this can be waved. Some games might be more built for local gameplay than others. BG3 probably should have gotten a waver, however.

 

[Fart Knight]

Good thing I held back with buying the Ultimate edition lol.

 

[Three]

Forza Motorsport has been a live service franchise for a decade now.

Deprioritizing a niche feature while focusing on transformative changes to improve multiplayer is now a ‘mistake’?

Not really, before it was a biannual release title. That's not really the long lasting live service type game akin to SoT. Every year you would add some new feature to sell and make a new release.

You've also completely misread the article. It's saying when making a live service game it's a mistake to concentrate on features or production value. It's saying with a live service type game it's better to cut features and production value to concentrate on the live service aspect (mtx content sales, store integration, etc) of what you're selling in a GaaS or f2p game.

 

[NeverYouMind]

It would be wiser for them to remove online requirement for single-player campaign. That is a deal breaker for retail releases. Unless they simply intend for the game to be Gamepass filler.

I sincerely hope Forza Horizon 6 does not have that bonkers requirement.

 

[Ozriel]

Not really, before it was a biannual release title. That's not really the long lasting live service type game akin to SoT. Every year you would add some new feature to sell and make a new release.

You've also completely misread the article. It's saying when making a live service game it's a mistake to concentrate on features or production value. It's saying with a live service type game it's better to cut features and production value to concentrate on the live service aspect (mtx content sales, store integration, etc) of what you're selling in a GaaS or f2p game.

And you’re completely misreading reality, since they’ve focused on improving the multiplayer mode and the fidelity of the game’s simulation. Not content sales, store integration or MTX. It’s launching with a car and track list larger than the majority of its competitors and they’ve even dramatically reduced the credits required to unlock the rarest, most expensive cars in game.

I think you’re barking up the wrong tree with this line of argument.

 

[Dane]

Guess this is a good time as any to repost this:

I hate to say outside of the cringe on the framerate against PS5, he's correct, that should be the standard, it used to be on PCs, no wonder why we are getting shit pc ports over the last three years because developers seemingly forgot there's something called CPU, the usage is so poor that a six core can have the same results as a 12 core, no wonder why some releases still perform better by deactivating multithreading as it seems they inherited the old gen hardware design with a CPU that was very outdated at its launch and decided to make everything GPU bound.

 

[systemr123]

In all honesty, barely anyone play splitscreen these days unless its in a party or a fighting game because its has been very local tailored over network and community. What people got pissed off for very big reason was Halo Inifinite having online coop delayed for months despite even running decently on local split screen.

Barely anyone in your environment maybe. I love playing couch coop with the kids, and yes it is stupid if you can not do that and you have to buy 2 consoles, with 2 online subs, so you can sit in other rooms instead of together to play the same game together.

 

[Dane]

Barely anyone in your environment maybe. I love playing couch coop with the kids, and yes it is stupid if you can not do that and you have to buy 2 consoles, with 2 online subs, so you can sit in other rooms instead of together to play the same game together.

In their main markets and stuff? Unfortunately this is the hard truth, I don't see why to not have split screen, but they know their public is mostly teenagers to adults that have their own hardware and very likely play alone for these games, split screen has become something more for kids than for core base who won't even bother with it, devs know their audience will play with friends online.

 

[poppabk]

Barely anyone in your environment maybe. I love playing couch coop with the kids, and yes it is stupid if you can not do that and you have to buy 2 consoles, with 2 online subs, so you can sit in other rooms instead of together to play the same game together.

I would love to have it, but it was never on PC anyway so I guess I can't truly miss what I never had, and it also isn't in any other Sim Racers I can think of. Dirt Rally 2.0 removed it, most never had it, and GT7's is just 1 on 1 with no AI and is also apparently not even properly functional.

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

When do we get the corporate speak, convoluted apology letter thingie? I'm starting to morbidly get excited for these at this point!

 

[Ozriel]

Barely anyone in your environment maybe. I love playing couch coop with the kids, and yes it is stupid if you can not do that and you have to buy 2 consoles, with 2 online subs, so you can sit in other rooms instead of together to play the same game together.

Any reason why you can’t just play other couch co-op games with the kids while waiting for this feature to be added post-launch? If you were going to buy it, that is.

For this genre, split screen seems to be a dying feature. F1 2023 is probably the sim racer in stores with a decent splitscreen experience.

I can recommend Mario Kart or Rocket League. My kids love Minecraft too.

When do we get the corporate speak, convoluted apology letter thingie? I'm starting to morbidly get excited for these at this point!

They’ve pretty much never released a Forza game broken before, releases have shown up with tons of content and a rock solid 60fps performance. so you’d be waiting for a while.

I suggest you look to other pursuits for excitement instead. Have you tried sex?

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Lazy ass devs

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

I suggest you look to other pursuits for excitement instead. Have you tried sex?

Actually, I have not. Would you recommend the sex?

 

[Fafalada]

It seems the development team really decided to put all their resources into the competitive aspect of the game

This is probably more noteworthy - but also a bit weird.
I mean this is coming off them basically cancelling most of their eSport/competitive focus 3 years ago (along with layoffs). But I guess someone had a change of heart - again.

 

[jm89]

 

[Honey Bunny]

Fortunately, we have a product for people who like splitscreen racing and it's called Project Gotham Racing

 

[Jibran#one]

I bought series X for this game thought it would come at launch 3 years in still waiting , split screen can suck a dick as long as we have amazing online rank matchmaking don't care about anything

 

[Daneel Elijah]

Fortunately, we have a product for people who like splitscreen racing and it's called Project Gotham Racing

 

[systemr123]

Any reason why you can’t just play other couch co-op games with the kids while waiting for this feature to be added post-launch? If you were going to buy it, that is.

For this genre, split screen seems to be a dying feature. F1 2023 is probably the sim racer in stores with a decent splitscreen experience.

I can recommend Mario Kart or Rocket League. My kids love Minecraft too.



They’ve pretty much never released a Forza game broken before, releases have shown up with tons of content and a rock solid 60fps performance. so you’d be waiting for a while.

I suggest you look to other pursuits for excitement instead. Have you tried sex?

Would never buy Forza because Gamepass. Also, we’re talking about this game not others, so yes I’ll play other games together and split screen will probably never be added for this game. Apparently MS can’t do split screen anymore. All games get it removed vs where a pc and or ps5 version do have split screen. Halo still doesn’t have it and never will.

 

[poppabk]

Have you tried sex?

Does it have spectator mode at launch?

 

[Hendrick's]

I must have missed the part where Turn 10 said this was because of the Series S. You guys are making a pretty big leap. We only have one actual report of the Series S having issues with split screen and that's BG3. Even there, I have no doubt it will be resolved. For a feature that 99% of gamers won't use, there sure is an awful amount of concern.

 

[poppabk]

Apparently MS can’t do split screen anymore. All games get it removed vs where a pc and or ps5 version do have split screen. Halo still doesn’t have it and never will.[/B]

FM7 on PC didn't have split screen.

 

[DeepEnigma]

What was that game with a supposedly "dead feature" that won GotY again at the VGAs (and many outlets) where even people on here raved about playing it with their significant others and children?

"Dead Feature™"

 

[Ozriel]

Would never buy Forza because Gamepass. Also, we’re talking about this game not others, so yes I’ll play other games together and split screen will probably never be added for this game. Apparently MS can’t do split screen anymore. All games get it removed vs where a pc and or ps5 version do have split screen. Halo still doesn’t have it and never will.

You’re not going to get a PS5 version of Forza Motorsport. It’s also not going to have split screen on PC at launch.

I wouldn’t be so certain about ‘all games get it removed’. The Medium had split screen months after launch on both Series X and S.

One would argue that the Xbox One was the bottleneck for removal of Halo Infinite splitscreen, not the Series S so…

What was that game with a supposedly "dead feature" that won GotY again at the VGAs (and many outlets) where even people on here raved about playing it with their significant others and children?

"Dead Feature™"

Ah yes. It Take Two. Same genre as sim racers. Quite wise of you.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Ah yes. It Take Two. Same genre as sim racers. Quite wise of you.

As wise as calling it a "dead feature," especially a staple one for racing games.

But I get it, they've conditioned you well.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

I just have missed the part where Turn 10 said this was because of the Series S. You guys are making a pretty big leap. We only have one actual report of the Series S having issues with split screen and that's BG3. Even there, I have no doubt it will be resolved. For a feature that 99% of gamers won't use, there sure is an awful amount of concern.

99 percent of people won't use? Really? You don't have friends?

 

[DeepEnigma]

99 percent of people won't use? Really?

Allow me to decipher true believer damage control speech.

"Brand (and others) are having issues implementing splitscreen in their current gen games, probably due to the low and slow memory footprint on their much lower spec box for 2023 and beyond's parity clause, thus games that were once feature complete with staple modes (the devs said this), won't have it at launch, if ever (where's that Redfall 60fps patch?), so the foregone conclusion is that... nobody uses that dead mode™."

 

[transformer]

Those asking who uses split screen, those of us with actual living breathing ppl that come visit or we visit?

Minecraft with split screen is one of the best things about that game. Same for Terraria.


Thank you.

Does everyone live alone? Imagine having to buy a whole ass console to play with your kids, nieces, nephews, other family members. A wife, husband, boyfriend, girlfriend.

Are we going to pretend that split screen on simulation oriented racing games hasn’t been, in practice, non-existent, for generations? The games that have it are rubbish and not worth playing in that mode. Go play GT7 or Forza 7 in split screen and report back,

 

[Ozriel]

As wise as calling it a "dead feature," especially a staple one for racing games.

‘Dying feature’ in sim racers. If it’s not present in Project Cars, Not present in Asseto Corsa, present as a broken after thought in GT7…how exactly is it a ‘staple’ in the genre in 2023?

DriveClub didn’t have it. Forza Horizon franchise is crazy popular and well regarded and doesn’t have it. TheCrew dropped it for Crew 2, and the upcoming Motorsport lacks it.

But I get it, they've conditioned you well.

I’m all about facts only, I'm afraid. But your concern is noted, as always.

 

[sinnergy]

Personally I don’t mind , I play for Single Player, and when I want MP, I’ll do that online .

 

[EverydayBeast]

I bought Gran turismo sport, then 7 so they made $120 off of me they think people need a new racing game every year it’s hilarious.