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[Hunnybun]

It's a dumb reason though. If someone really wants to jump to PC, a Pro-console would be too little of a jump to warrant a release for that specific reason.

We're just going by what Andrew House said was the reason. I'm guessing they have data that backs them up.

It seems sort of plausible to me - graphics and performance are very important to me but I really don't want to game on a PC, so a compromise is basically what I'm looking for.

If someone really wanted to jump to PC then they probably would've done it years ago and wouldn't be part of the equation. Sony is targeting people who have a strong preference for console gaming.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

We're just going by what Andrew House said was the reason. I'm guessing they have data that backs them up.

It seems sort of plausible to me - graphics and performance are very important to me but I really don't want to game on a PC, so a compromise is basically what I'm looking for.

If someone really wanted to jump to PC then they probably would've done it years ago and wouldn't be part of the equation. Sony is targeting people who have a strong preference for console gaming.

Andrew House made that statement in an era where PCs weren't nearly as massive, costly, or power hungry. There's simply no way for a console to compete with the high end PC market today.

But there are genuine other reasons why a Pro model makes a lot of sense. And yes, it is just making the console ecosystem better and keeping their console consumers happy.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

We're just going by what Andrew House said was the reason. I'm guessing they have data that backs them up.

It seems sort of plausible to me - graphics and performance are very important to me but I really don't want to game on a PC, so a compromise is basically what I'm looking for.

If someone really wanted to jump to PC then they probably would've done it years ago and wouldn't be part of the equation. Sony is targeting people who have a strong preference for console gaming.

I always took that as PR, as Shuhei Yoshida once talked about Pro being intended to boost PSVR-performance.
That's why PSVR and Pro released practically alongside eachother.

The leap going from base PS to PC would be far greater than from base PS to Pro, if you're going to make the jump at that point into the gen. To the point that the increase for Pro becimes insignificant compared to what PC would offer.

 

[RJMacready73]

Andrew House made that statement in an era where PCs weren't nearly as massive, costly, or power hungry. There's simply no way for a console to compete with the high end PC market today.

But there are genuine other reasons why a Pro model makes a lot of sense. And yes, it is just making the console ecosystem better and keeping their console consumers happy.

Where modern consoles ever competing with high end PC's? You can't compare a £500 console to a single component costing nearly twice as much tbf, a Pro model is simply a mid gen refresh for those that have the money and could probably afford a high end PC but can't be arsed with the hassle of a PC and instead simply want a little bit more ommph

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I always took that as PR, as Shuhei Yoshida once talked about Pro being intended to boost PSVR-performance.
That's why PSVR and Pro released practically alongside eachother.

The leap going from base PS to PC would be far greater than from base PS to Pro, if you're going to make the jump at that point into the gen. To the point that the increase for Pro becimes insignificant compared to what PC would offer.

Well there's more factors than just raw performance

In my opinion, PC gamers are GROSSLY overpaying at the high end for something that really doesn't matter. Why does it not matter much? Because of a number of factors:

1) PC optimization is basically a mirage. It doesn't exist. Developers can make an adequately good experience, but they will never be able to target singular hardware.
2) High End PC IS NEVER the target base specs for development. So all these high end platforms never get fully utilized at all. Nowhere close. Developers target much lower spec PC hardware or console level hardware (PS5) because that has the largest audience

So the reality is that PS5 Pro will actually punch MUCH HIGHER than many think vs. high end PC, because it will be better optimized thanks to the console target fixed hardware, and the fact that all dev resources will be going to PS5 base level hardware mostly anyways.

 

[Topher]

It will be interesting to see how well the dual-issue shaders can be used in a console, so far it hasn't amounted to much in the PC space.

Primarily because compilers are not ready for them based on an article Gaiff provided yesterday. Currently requires coding at the assembly level and only really applies to bottleneck situations. Can't see that level of effort being a priority for developers.

 

[sachos]

Best thing next to actually playing games? Pre-console launch spec speculation/discussion, love that shit.
Mid gen refreshes are a nice apperitive leading up to next gen. If the rumors are true the PS5 Pro has some of the features that i was expecting in the PS6. I wonder if they will have a path tracing demo, that would be killer.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Well there's more factors than just raw performance

In my opinion, PC gamers are GROSSLY overpaying at the high end for something that really doesn't matter. Why does it not matter much? Because of a number of factors:

1) PC optimization is basically a mirage. It doesn't exist. Developers can make an adequately good experience, but they will never be able to target singular hardware.
2) High End PC IS NEVER the target base specs for development. So all these high end platforms never get fully utilized at all. Nowhere close. Developers target much lower spec PC hardware or console level hardware (PS5) because that has the largest audience

So the reality is that PS5 Pro will actually punch MUCH HIGHER than many think vs. high end PC, because it will be better optimized thanks to the console target fixed hardware, and the fact that all dev resources will be going to PS5 base level hardware mostly anyways.

I fully agree with you. That's how I look at it as well.

But I don't see how people would make the jump from console to PC if not aiming for high-end, at which point I don't think a Pro-upgrade would be enough to prevent that.

 

[Hunnybun]

Andrew House made that statement in an era where PCs weren't nearly as massive, costly, or power hungry. There's simply no way for a console to compete with the high end PC market today.

But there are genuine other reasons why a Pro model makes a lot of sense. And yes, it is just making the console ecosystem better and keeping their console consumers happy.

Is that valid? The Pro can still compete with the cheaper midrange PCs that those notional PC buyers would be targeting, so not sure of the relevance of its ability to compete with a 4090.

I always took that as PR, as Shuhei Yoshida once talked about Pro being intended to boost PSVR-performance.
That's why PSVR and Pro released practically alongside eachother.

The leap going from base PS to PC would be far greater than from base PS to Pro, if you're going to make the jump at that point into the gen. To the point that the increase for Pro becimes insignificant compared to what PC would offer.

I have no idea whether it's PR or not. Who even cares? Sony are obviously making the Pro consoles for some reason. Right? It can't be VR because they're doing it again and VR2 has been a disaster. Offering a PC like alternative to keep wavering high value consumers engaged sounds more plausible than anything else I've heard plus it's what they ACTUALLY SAID. Is there a better explanation?

 

[Killjoy-NL]

I have no idea whether it's PR or not. Who even cares? Sony are obviously making the Pro consoles for some reason. Right? It can't be VR because they're doing it again and VR2 has been a disaster. Offering a PC like alternative to keep wavering high value consumers engaged sounds more plausible than anything else I've heard plus it's what they ACTUALLY SAID. Is there a better explanation?

Sounds more like all the more reason to not release a Pro, because that portion of the PlayStation installbase is insignificant.
And if  that's the reason, it would be kind of a waste of investment.

The only other reason I could think of for this gen, would be to compete with Xbox.
But that has become a non-issue as Xbox is practically out of the game in that regard.

 

[Hunnybun]

Sounds more like all the more reason to not release a Pro, because that portion of the PlayStation installbase is insignificant.
And if  that's the reason, it would be kind of a waste of investment.

The only other reason I could think of for this gen, would be to compete with Xbox.
But that has become a non-issue as Xbox is practically out of the game in that regard.

I don't really understand your point tbh.

All I'm doing is taking Sony at their word and accepting that the reason they are doing this is what they say it is.

I think it's plausible cos those customers will be valuable and highly engaged.

If you don't think that then fine. Unless you can offer an alternative explanation I don't see what else there is to say tbh.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

I don't really understand your point tbh.

All I'm doing is taking Sony at their word and accepting that the reason they are doing this is what they say it is.

I think it's plausible cos those customers will be valuable and highly engaged.

If you don't think that then fine. Unless you can offer an alternative explanation I don't see what else there is to say tbh.

All I've been saying, is that people should consider the possibility that Sony is shelving the Pro, as there is little reason to release it now that competition with Xbox is over.
And that the logic of "preventing players from moving to PC" was mostly PR and isn't as relevant anymore this gen anyway.

Basically, I'm saying there is not much to win for Sony by releasing a Pro.
But if they do, I'm cool with it and I'll be there day 1.

So ultimately, it doesn't really matter either way.

 

[Gaiff]

Andrew House made that statement in an era where PCs weren't nearly as massive, costly, or power hungry. There's simply no way for a console to compete with the high end PC market today.

But there are genuine other reasons why a Pro model makes a lot of sense. And yes, it is just making the console ecosystem better and keeping their console consumers happy.

I would argue the PS5/Pro are much better equipped to compete with PCs than the PS4 ever was. They’re comparatively much better and balanced machines.

 

[hussar16]

Andrew House made that statement in an era where PCs weren't nearly as massive, costly, or power hungry. There's simply no way for a console to compete with the high end PC market today.

But there are genuine other reasons why a Pro model makes a lot of sense. And yes, it is just making the console ecosystem better and keeping their console consumers happy.

I'm not buying a ps5 pro just to play these ps4 engine games upscaled.

 

[ChiefDada]

The 7800 XT only hit a 2425 MHz average at 250W of power consumption. It's hardly crazy to think that ~180W part would see reduced clock speeds. But people in these threads continue to believe insane clock speeds that aren't even seen on PC.

Was 2.23ghz seen much in PC space when PS5 came out?

 

[ChiefDada]

Best thing next to actually playing games? Pre-console launch spec speculation/discussion, love that shit.
Mid gen refreshes are a nice apperitive leading up to next gen. If the rumors are true the PS5 Pro has some of the features that i was expecting in the PS6. I wonder if they will have a path tracing demo, that would be killer.

 

[Gaiff]

Was 2.23ghz seen much in PC space when PS5 came out?

Yes.

 

[FireFly]

Was 2.23ghz seen much in PC space when PS5 came out?

Yes, the 6700 XT clocked at 2489 MHz on average and the 160W 6600 XT was hitting 2.5 GHz.

AMD Radeon RX 6700 XT Review

The AMD Radeon RX 6700 XT introduces the new Navi 22 GPU, which is optimized to take the fight to NVIDIA in the $500 segment. The RX 6700 XT in our review beats the RTX 3060 Ti with ease and achieves performance that rivals the more expensive RTX 3070, with lower fan noise.

www.techpowerup.com

Sapphire Radeon RX 6600 XT Pulse OC Review

Sapphire's Pulse is a cost-efficient, no-frills Radeon RX 6600 XT custom design that comes in at only a small price increase over the AMD base price. In our review, we found that the card still achieves excellent noise levels while also keeping temperatures low.

www.techpowerup.com

So while 2.23 GHz was impressive for a console GPU it was still clocked below equivalent cards in the PC space.

 

[Zathalus]

Yes, the 6700 XT clocked at 2489 MHz on average and the 160W 6600 XT was hitting 2.5 GHz.

AMD Radeon RX 6700 XT Review

The AMD Radeon RX 6700 XT introduces the new Navi 22 GPU, which is optimized to take the fight to NVIDIA in the $500 segment. The RX 6700 XT in our review beats the RTX 3060 Ti with ease and achieves performance that rivals the more expensive RTX 3070, with lower fan noise.

www.techpowerup.com

Sapphire Radeon RX 6600 XT Pulse OC Review

Sapphire's Pulse is a cost-efficient, no-frills Radeon RX 6600 XT custom design that comes in at only a small price increase over the AMD base price. In our review, we found that the card still achieves excellent noise levels while also keeping temperatures low.

www.techpowerup.com

So while 2.23 GHz was impressive for a console GPU it was still clocked below equivalent cards in the PC space.

Neither of those cards existed when the PS5 launched. The only PC GPU that could hit those clock speeds without overclocking launched the week after the PS5 did.

 

[FireFly]

Neither of those cards existed when the PS5 launched. The only PC GPU that could hit those clock speeds without overclocking launched the week after the PS5 did.

The question I am addressing is whether the PS5 was clocked lower than equivalent PC parts on the same architecture. Not how the PS5 stacked up to current PCs when it launched.

 

[Audiophile]

Remember 2233MHz being a big surprise after the 800MHz/911MHz on PS4/Pro.

Most folks were expecting a wide 1500-1800MHz. I don't think anyone was expecting a console to match or exceed existing high end desktop cards in clock speed.

 

[jroc74]

Remember 2233MHz being a big surprise after the 800MHz/911MHz on PS4/Pro.

Most folks were expecting a wide 1500-1800MHz. I don't think anyone was expecting a console to match or exceed existing high end desktop cards in clock speed.

Yup.

Even the clock speeds in the github leak for the PS5 was considered impossible....until RDNA 2 was revealed. Then it all made sense, lol.

 

[Hunnybun]

All I've been saying, is that people should consider the possibility that Sony is shelving the Pro, as there is little reason to release it now that competition with Xbox is over.
And that the logic of "preventing players from moving to PC" was mostly PR and isn't as relevant anymore this gen anyway.

Basically, I'm saying there is not much to win for Sony by releasing a Pro.
But if they do, I'm cool with it and I'll be there day 1.

So ultimately, it doesn't really matter either way.

They're not going to shelve it now. Way too late.

 

[Tqaulity]

There is a pretty simple explanation for the 45% figure not aligning with the 65% tflops increase. And we simply have to take cernys word for it. Increasing CUs doesn’t get us a linear performance increase. Amd had to add infinity cache to each rdna 2 and rdna 3 gpu to get around that bottleneck and thats something Xbox and ps simply can’t have due to costs. That’s why xbox’s 20% advantage didn’t translate into 20% performance in so many games.

The same thing is happening here.

I've heard that explanation but there in lies my point. We all know that real world performance don't equate to the theoretical numbers. But in terms of what is typically marketed, game companies never get in the weeds of that kind of detail. Every computing system has bottlenecks that prevent it from achieving the theoretical specs but that never stops companies from presenting the theory/dream. Who remembers that the PS2 was marketed as a 6.2GFLOP machine which was an astronomically high number for the day. Did real world games ever get close to that? No. How about the fact that in its initial presentation to the public, the PS3 (not PS4) was marketed as a 2 TFLOP machine! Yeah right! So what I'm saying is that figure of +45% rendering performance doesn't make sense from a marketing perspective when:

1. The figure itself is pretty low, especially in the context of what the PS4 Pro was relative to the PS4. From a marketing perspective, it's not a great metric to even present in the context of overall GPU perf
2. The typical metric used for marketing GPU power has been TFLOPs and by their own data, the TFLOP figures point to a higher relative performance (+65%)

Again, the term "rendering performance" has NEVER been used as a performance metric with the arrival of a new console. Rendering is just one aspect of the graphics pipeline and don't tell the whole story of what the overall graphics performance will be. It just doesn't add up.

 

[SlimySnake]

I've heard that explanation but there in lies my point. We all know that real world performance don't equate to the theoretical numbers. But in terms of what is typically marketed, game companies never get in the weeds of that kind of detail. Every computing system has bottlenecks that prevent it from achieving the theoretical specs but that never stops companies from presenting the theory/dream. Who remembers that the PS2 was marketed as a 6.2GFLOP machine which was an astronomically high number for the day. Did real world games ever get close to that? No. How about the fact that in its initial presentation to the public, the PS3 (not PS4) was marketed as a 2 TFLOP machine! Yeah right! So what I'm saying is that figure of +45% rendering performance doesn't make sense from a marketing perspective when:

1. The figure itself is pretty low, especially in the context of what the PS4 Pro was relative to the PS4. From a marketing perspective, it's not a great metric to even present in the context of overall GPU perf
2. The typical metric used for marketing GPU power has been TFLOPs and by their own data, the TFLOP figures point to a higher relative performance (+65%)

Again, the term "rendering performance" has NEVER been used as a performance metric with the arrival of a new console. Rendering is just one aspect of the graphics pipeline and don't tell the whole story of what the overall graphics performance will be. It just doesn't add up.

It's not a marketing document. It's a spec sheet for developers only to let them know what to expect from the new hardware. Sony will never use that 45% figure in actual marketing when they can use the inflated 33 tflops figure.

 

[jroc74]

It's not a marketing document. It's a spec sheet for developers only to let them know what to expect from the new hardware. Sony will never use that 45% figure in actual marketing when they can use the inflated 33 tflops figure.

This has been on my mind since this was confirmed to be real.

Makes the wait for the price either a pleasant surprise or an omg what are they doing...

 

[lh032]

What is your reaction if gta 6 really runs at 30fps on the pro?
for me, that would be very disappointing and im not sure how Sony is going to marker the pro with GTA 6.

"With the pro there will be more NPC on screen with 30fps"
"Textures will be better with 30 fps"
"1440 with 30fps"

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

What is your reaction if gta 6 really runs at 30fps on the pro?
for me, that would be very disappointing and im not sure how Sony is going to marker the pro with GTA 6.

"With the pro there will be more NPC on screen with 30fps"
"Textures will be better with 30 fps"
"1440 with 30fps"

The question that then arises is can you delay buying the PS5 until you know this information?

If GTAVI runs with 30fps I'm going to build a new gaming PC. There's no way that I'm playing this game with 30fps on my OLED.

 

[Bojji]

What is your reaction if gta 6 really runs at 30fps on the pro?
for me, that would be very disappointing and im not sure how Sony is going to marker the pro with GTA 6.

"With the pro there will be more NPC on screen with 30fps"
"Textures will be better with 30 fps"
"1440 with 30fps"

If they can run it in 40FPS on Pro that will be enough for me.

 

[asdasdasdbb]

I have to think it'll be 30 fps on PS5/Series. The Pro... we shall see.

 

[chessy_08]

What is your reaction if gta 6 really runs at 30fps on the pro?
for me, that would be very disappointing and im not sure how Sony is going to marker the pro with GTA 6.

"With the pro there will be more NPC on screen with 30fps"
"Textures will be better with 30 fps"
"1440 with 30fps"

that literally wont happen. If base ps5 can run gta 6 a a 30fps base why couldnt a machine 3 times more powerful run the same game atleast as a base at 60 fps. more power cant get twice the fps at the same resolution? that make zero sense. worst case scenario you can expect gta6 at 60 fps with the same base settings as ps5 base.

 

[SlimySnake]

that literally wont happen. If base ps5 can run gta 6 a a 30fps base why couldnt a machine 3 times more powerful run the same game atleast as a base at 60 fps. more power cant get twice the fps at the same resolution? that make zero sense. worst case scenario you can expect gta6 at 60 fps with the same base settings as ps5 base.

Lmao. It’s not 3x more powerful.

These rdna 3 tflops are going to make the next few months and years incredibly frustrating to navigate.

 

[magnumpy]

no a disc drive will still be available you will just have to buy it (unless you own one already) and I’m hoping for 699 would mean it’s premium specs

well yeah I assume a pro model would have premium specs. but that depends, I mean would old school (fat or slim) PS5 receive a price cut along with the launch of the "Pro" model? I'm not sure how they did this before, come to think of it the "PS5 Pro" and the "Nintendo Switch 2" should be launching around the same time, well google says "PS5 Pro" launches at the end of 2024 and "Nintendo Switch 2" comes at the beginning of 2025. what a time to be alive

 

[PaintTinJr]

Lmao. It’s not 3x more powerful.

These rdna 3 tflops are going to make the next few months and years incredibly frustrating to navigate.

Possibly, let's see what Cerny says about them, like the rapid pack maths or Sony's use of PS2 emotion engine and Cell SPUs.

The main reason dual issue doesn't see a benefit on PC is because the workloads aren't "bin packing" to the hardware for the benefit to significantly outweigh the increase in workload gaps.

Nanite and Lumen's large complex compute shaders(one for each) may even be able to work in parallel, say next nanite frame with current lumen frame, or work in tandem with the wider compute doing AI inference continuously on another shader asynchronously filling the empty spaces of useable, unutilised Floating point compute.

We'll know when Cerny tells us what Sony can do with tweaking the hardware and tightly mapping the Unreal and Unity engines to the hardware IMO.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Possibly, let's see what Cerny says about them, like the rapid pack maths or Sony's use of PS2 emotion engine and Cell SPUs.

The main reason dual issue doesn't see a benefit on PC is because the workloads aren't "bin packing" to the hardware for the benefit to significantly outweigh the increase in workload gaps.

Nanite and Lumen's large complex compute shaders(one for each) may even be able to work in parallel, say next nanite frame with current lumen frame, or work in tandem with the wider compute doing AI inference continuously on another shader asynchronously filling the empty spaces of useable, unutilised Floating point compute.

We'll know when Cerny tells us what Sony can do with tweaking the hardware and tightly mapping the Unreal and Unity engines to the hardware IMO.

I think there is a heavy chance that RDNA4 has further tweaks to make dual issue more practical removing edge cases (and we are talking about a closed box console with everything optimised for each other… semi custom HW, custom shader compiler, etc…).

 

[Killjoy-NL]

They're not going to shelve it now. Way too late.

Maybe.

But like I said, I'll buy it if it releases, so it doesn't really matter to me personally (then I can give my PS5 to my stepson).

Just saying there isn't much to gain for Sony and it'll be a somewhat wasted investment.

 

[SlimySnake]

Possibly, let's see what Cerny says about them, like the rapid pack maths or Sony's use of PS2 emotion engine and Cell SPUs.

The main reason dual issue doesn't see a benefit on PC is because the workloads aren't "bin packing" to the hardware for the benefit to significantly outweigh the increase in workload gaps.

Nanite and Lumen's large complex compute shaders(one for each) may even be able to work in parallel, say next nanite frame with current lumen frame, or work in tandem with the wider compute doing AI inference continuously on another shader asynchronously filling the empty spaces of useable, unutilised Floating point compute.

We'll know when Cerny tells us what Sony can do with tweaking the hardware and tightly mapping the Unreal and Unity engines to the hardware IMO.

Well they already said the ps5 pro gpu performance is only 45% better so there is no let’s see on this. We know the dual issue didn’t help them take the 60% tflops increase send turn it into 120% more performance. If anything, it’s less.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Maybe.

But like I said, I'll buy it if it releases, so it doesn't really matter to me personally (then I can give my PS5 to my stepson).

Just saying there isn't much to gain for Sony and it'll be a somewhat wasted investment.

Possibly, but it will likely sell some units and it is probably something that gets them slim model APUs cheaper and allows them to try PS6 ideas and BC features in the wild.

Launching a new generation is a very very very large investment and gathering data from a re-engaged consumer base helps. It is probably something that helped Sony more than MS last generation because they had 1 more year of data from PS4 Pro than MS did for Xbox One X when they launched their next-generation console which also meant more time to make use of that data to prepare and refine their next-generation offering.

There is lemonade to be made of this lemon (it is not really a lemon, but you know what I mean).

 

[PaintTinJr]

I think there is a heavy chance that RDNA4 has further tweaks to make dual issue more practical removing edge cases (and we are talking about a closed box console with everything optimised for each other… semi custom HW, custom shader compiler, etc…).

Yeah, we listen to Cerny's presentations and IMO the overriding feeling I get is that every single engineering choice has had to fight for its place in the box to justify it adding to the BoM and R&D costs for developers and PlayStation. If Dual issue offers nothing to other than lower power draw and ability to clock the chip lower, then I'm sure Cerny will tell us that.

Much like the PS4 Pro, games on a PS5 Pro are going to need enhanced, maybe with an incentive from PlayStation for devs, and by all accounts the ROPs increase will probably take most games as is from capped 30fps with a 40fps mode to a stable 60fps mode.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Well they already said the ps5 pro gpu performance is only 45% better so there is no let’s see on this. We know the dual issue didn’t help them take the 60% tflops increase send turn it into 120% more performance. If anything, it’s less.

But surely that can be an issue of being too honest and setting expectation in terms of PC, no? A 45% better PC card would usually be defined by its ability to maintain current visuals at a higher resolution where IO/Memory bandwidth are limiting.

That doesn't mean that if targeting the current resolution that card can't provide a significantly bigger leap than 45% if at lower resolution the bottleneck becomes the GPU internal caches and Compute.

As it stands IMO, 1080p/1440p as a native base image to AI enhance to 4K on console is still the correct choice, and in that situation I could easily see Cerny show us a Pro that exploits dual issue at FP16 and produces visuals that are at 60fps and good enough to be within DLSS levels of comparison of native. Or a Pro version of a game that produce visuals with lighting complexity at 30fps that is exceeding the DLSS/4K native on top tier PC, but at 1440p or 1080p output on console.

 

[Bernardougf]

What is your reaction if gta 6 really runs at 30fps on the pro?
for me, that would be very disappointing and im not sure how Sony is going to marker the pro with GTA 6.

"With the pro there will be more NPC on screen with 30fps"
"Textures will be better with 30 fps"
"1440 with 30fps"

They will have to market to the crowd that enjoys seeing pretty lights and their reflections on a puddle.

Ill wait and see what the Pro brings to the table. If its only "muh ray tracing" bullshit Im out.

Personally for me.. this gen with stories and narratives being mostly shit I've gravitated towards "gameplay first" , the days of cinematic games "wowing" me are over ... so gameplay is king .. and 30/40 fps no matter the game is dogshit imo... so I want a locked 60fps machine. If sony cant deliver (with this and especially ps6) and start putting their games closely on PC, next gen Im going this route.

With mid-high tier Gpus costing 700+ dollars a 499 nextgen console would be a joke that only nintendo is capable of pulling off because of the style of games they embrace.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Yeah, we listen to Cerny's presentations and IMO the overriding feeling I get is that every single engineering choice has had to fight for its place in the box to justify it adding to the BoM and R&D costs for developers and PlayStation. If Dual issue offers nothing to other than lower power draw and ability to clock the chip lower, then I'm sure Cerny will tell us that.

Much like the PS4 Pro, games on a PS5 Pro are going to need enhanced, maybe with an incentive from PlayStation for devs, and by all accounts the ROPs increase will probably take most games as is from capped 30fps with a 40fps mode to a stable 60fps mode.

I agree, it is very likely that they are making very very deliberate decisions in what to include and how to make sure it is useful if they include it and/or issues with it are minimised (they requested an FPU redesign for Zen 2 for God’s sake they like the custom in semi custom). So, I think dual issue will have been improved over RDNA3 and it is a console environment which is where we can expect new features to get a chance to be used sooner rather than later compared to PC (see Direct Storage like tech) and it should be easier for Sony to make it practical for devs to extract potential out of it (very controlled end to end environment).

I am very curious to see what they learned from PS4 Pro and how they are applying it to PS5 Pro and how that will converge in PS6.

 

[SABRE220]

1. Why are you conveniently referencing raster only workload when you claimed this:



PS5 Pro RT is cleary much more performant than 3080 RT tech maybe even a smidge degree above Lovelace with talks of up to 4x PS5 RT

I am not conveniently ignoring anything, you're simply being immensely optimistic while ignoring the limitations provided in the slides. Sonys own slides mentioned that the range of rt improvement is from 2-3x and in rare cases 4x. The fact is in sheer standard compute output it only provides a 45 percent increase over the ps5 while the 3080 and 4070 provide 70 to 80 percent gains and in rt benchmarks both perform similarly so lets assume the best case scenario and think that the new architecture matches nvidia in rt efficiency it would still fall behind due to the lack in compute output and bandwidth limitations.

I would love for the console to match the 3080 but the sad fact is that from what they told us so far its not happening its going to be around a 3070 sadly which is underwhelming as hell for me.

 

[ChiefDada]

I am not conveniently ignoring anything, you're simply being immensely optimistic while ignoring the limitations provided in the slides. Sonys own slides mentioned that the range of rt improvement is from 2-3x and in rare cases 4x. The fact is in sheer standard compute output it only provides a 45 percent increase over the ps5 while the 3080 and 4070 provide 70 to 80 percent gains and in rt benchmarks both perform similarly so lets assume the best case scenario and think that the new architecture matches nvidia in rt efficiency it would still fall behind due to the lack in compute output and bandwidth limitations.

I would love for the console to match the 3080 but the sad fact is that from what they told us so far its not happening its going to be around a 3070 sadly which is underwhelming as hell for me.

This is incorrect. It depends on split between raster and RT frame budget. I did the math assuming 45% raster and 2.5x RT boost. Show me your calculations if you disagree.

From my earlier post:

 

[Snake29]

GDC 2024 starts tomorrow. They might have some behind close doors sessions some devs might leak.

 

[Panajev2001a]

The fact is in sheer standard compute output it only provides a 45 percent increase over the ps5

Not quite, even with 0% dual issue it is still 17+ TFLOPS va 10 TFLOPS which is far above that. You are reading one number when it suits the argument and another one when it does not…

Nobody is thinking performance scales linearly, so you can avoid going for that supposed gotcha .

 

[SABRE220]

Not quite, even with 0% dual issue it is still 17+ TFLOPS va 10 TFLOPS which is far above that. You are reading one number when it suits the argument and another one when it does not…

My guy Sony's own documentation states that its performance in standard scenarios amounts to a 45% increase, this isn't me this is their own analysis of the real-world performance they think can draw from the hardware.

There is a bottleneck probably a lack of infinity cache bandwidth to save die cost that is causing the 6.7 additional tflops to only translate into a 45% gain whereas even a 7700xt should push out around a 60% gain. Again I would love to be pleasantly surprised and have the sony slides be purposely conservative but based on the info given so far it is what it is.

 

[Panajev2001a]

My guy Sony's own documentation states that its performance in standard scenarios amounts to a 45% increase, there is clearly a bottleneck probably lack of infinity cache bandwidth that is causing the 6.7 additional tflops to only translate into a 45% gain whereas even a 7700xt should push out around a 60% gain.

Glad that after 4 years we agree TFLOPS are not everything .

Again, we have seen one slide with for devs historically conservative numbers which for all we know may have lots of asterisks. Optimised vs unoptimised titles? Is it raster performance or an approximation of framerate boosts? What about RT heavy titles?… etc…
Stand on that hill to fight it .

 

[SABRE220]

Glad that after 4 years we agree TFLOPS are not everything .

Again, we have seen one slide with for devs historically conservative numbers which for all we know may have lots of asterisks. Optimised vs unoptimised titles? Is it raster performance or an approximation of framerate boosts? What about RT heavy titles?… etc…
Stand on that hill to fight it .

I don't think I have ever claimed flops are everything on the contrary I have always argued against that sentiment.

Also as I said in the post you quoted:
"Again I would love to be pleasantly surprised and have the Sony's slides be purposely conservative but based on the info given so far it is what it is."

 

[Rudius]

Rocco Schiavone The leaks are already taking their toll on your boy...

That guy has multi-issue capability.