Support NeoGAF

[HighPoly]

I remember when devs were hyping us the next gen consoles to the heavens and selling us the pie where the visuals would come close to the assassins creed 2 cgi.... and the rebirth demo would be be surpassed quickly ...yeah maybe on the ps6 .

No way...
All those geometric elements and lighting in pair with Naughty Dog animations, are possible only on next gen consoles.
Well, I think today we're touching the limits of this generation with Alan Wake 2 and Forbidden West, like, Does anyone think we're gonna surpass these two games??
I mean, easely??

Wolverine for example! Maybe a linear game, with beutiful animations, much more like that Wolverine Hack'n Slash from 360, but with more blood, tearing people apart, dismemberment!!! Particles and maybe a nice lighting tricks... But nothing like a generational leap since Spider Man 2...

 

[TGO]

Sure guys, I'm here today speaking you that we're already running PSONE/PS2, and Toy Story 1 and 2, CGi level graphics, right now!

But, there's something about next gen graphics, maybe UE6, when all those assets from UE5 reach the maximum!!!
Well, I don't think PS5 will do this, and PS5 PRO, just a little bit.

Well, Today games are looking so amazing, but anyway, I believe something like these trailers below, in real time, will be possible at the next Gen consoles!
PS360 CGi era !







I mean, we're running that same texture level, but geometry, hair, cloth physics are not !
Path Tracing maybe touch that level of lighting and shadows!

LET'S TALK GUYS ! ! !

Not at 120fps/60fps

 

[blue velvet]

We are already there with ff16 and Death Stranding 2.
Some moments and scenes look downright CGI like. My fav is the girl in this first shot. Smooth lighting.

And these Death Stranding shots are from my playthrough on ps4 slim.. not even pro

I finished death stranding on PC a few days ago running at max settings. The cutscenes look fine but during gameplay the visuals just aren't that impressive. Muddy textures, poor anti aliasing causes so much shimmering specially with man made structures, grass looks flat sometimes. Going from RDR 2 to this game felt like it was generation behind.





RDR 2

 

[HighPoly]

Not at 120fps/60fps

if ND take the same Last of Us 2 engine, and downgrade the resolution to 720p and 30fps, we could run PS360 CGi level !
Ok, without Path Tracing... But Come on, PS5 FAT with 10 Teraflops, running Last of Us 2 engine at 720p 30fps... Maybe!

The trick is resolution, all the time, cause as you may see we're not running even native 4k yet... Well, 1440p 30 or 60fps on PS6 is perfect to me...
So, in that case we would probably reach PS360 cgi levels!

Like: 50 Teraflops in 1440p 30~60fps?

 

[rofif]

I finished death stranding on PC a few days ago running at max settings. The cutscenes look fine but during gameplay the visuals just aren't that impressive. Muddy textures, poor anti aliasing causes so much shimmering specially with man made structures, grass looks flat sometimes. Going from RDR 2 to this game felt like it was generation behind.





RDR 2

yeah depends. The paths look bad.
but some vistas look amazing. But obviouslt gameplay looks nothing like cg. Only cutscenes can apply here

 

[HighPoly]

I finished death stranding on PC a few days ago running at max settings. The cutscenes look fine but during gameplay the visuals just aren't that impressive. Muddy textures, poor anti aliasing causes so much shimmering specially with man made structures, grass looks flat sometimes. Going from RDR 2 to this game felt like it was generation behind.





RDR 2

Well guys
Everybody believe we're at the same PS2CGi Level in real time

Red Dead 2
Uncharted 4
GOW 2018/Ragnarok
Cyberpunk
Alan Wake 2
Gears 4/5
Assassin's in general!
COD and BF
FORZA and Gran Turismo, all of them!
DriveClub
FF7Remake
RE7,8, 2Remake, 3Remake, 4Remake
Ratchet Clank 2016/Rift Apart
Infamous SS
Horizon, all of Them!
Death Stranding
Ryse Son of Rome

 

[Hudo]

Spoilers ahead for WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne


This was the fucking shit back when I was a wee lad.

 

[CamHostage]

Still waiting for someone to re-think 2d graphics. Just think about how mortal combat and or narc blew people away.
Surely there is a new system that could generate a lifelike 2d image in 2023.

The guy who founded the Galloping Ghost arcade made his own MK-like fighter over the course of 20 years. It unfortunately still didn't turn out great IMO, but it's interesting how it came about and was refined/refilmed over the years.



The Bikini Karate Babes games are what they are, but the resolution and movement is surprisingly not shit. (It's mostly alpha-keyed video with hitboxes triggering transitions, but it seems to work not too bad.)


(There was another of these HD 2D MK-style digitized fighters being made not too long ago, I'm not sure what happened to it but I think it never released?)

Rethinking 2D graphics seems hard to conceive what else there would be. We have sprites, and I don't think those have changed much except resolution, color depth, and manipulation over the years. (You kind of don't want sprites to change, as the specific quality of sprites designed for the exact display pixels is its own virtue, even if you do kind of want it to stretch and spin and whatnot.) We have digitized graphics, but that's just live-action pixels; same for "ACM" CGI-to-2D graphics like DKC. Then you have vector graphics, which allow great fidelity and flexibility since you're describing motion of color and lines rather than individual pixels, but lots of people don't actually like the look of vector graphics when animated (too fluid, and associated with cheap games) unless it's done spectacularly well. "HD-2D" where 2D is augmented with 3D and other modern effects such as lighting and motion blur is cool IMO but some people are bothered by it and it can go too far into "Is this still 2D?" territory. And all of this is affected by cost and talent, as it takes handmade work (or an AI trained on what's already good) to make real 2D graphics, whereas 3D has a lot of technical systems in order to go beyond the human production input. It could happen, but I can't think of something on the horizon besides maybe AI that could tween animation in a way we're wanting here.



(Storage and IO used to be a problem here, as adding a ton of extra animations/frames and putting lots of alternate cycles melding in and out of animation frames for switches of movement or action would build up a ton of big graphics to store and pull from; now with SSDs and gigabytes of EXEs, probably you're not so worried about hitting a max. I'd actually be curious what would happen if somebody did make a 2D game optimized for today's fast IO and just had as many sprite sheet sets as possible to sub between every other frame of major action animations?)

 

[CamHostage]

The original Toy Story used far lower resolution than 4k and IIRC it downsampled from far less than 8k. And not a jaggy in sight.

It's not CG, but I'm always stunned that stuff like David Fincher's Zodiac was filmed at 1920 x 4320; Social Network finally marked the moment movies could be filmed in 4K, but it's still not the standard resolution (and theater projection is still not often 4K, over ten years later.)

 

[SABRE220]

No way...
All those geometric elements and lighting in pair with Naughty Dog animations, are possible only on next gen consoles.
Well, I think today we're touching the limits of this generation with Alan Wake 2 and Forbidden West, like, Does anyone think we're gonna surpass these two games??
I mean, easely??

Wolverine for example! Maybe a linear game, with beutiful animations, much more like that Wolverine Hack'n Slash from 360, but with more blood, tearing people apart, dismemberment!!! Particles and maybe a nice lighting tricks... But nothing like a generational leap since Spider Man 2...

Yes they literally said that something close to the scale and general level of the trailer was achivable and that the rebirth demos visuals would be common place and will be surpassed quickly into the gen. Even I bought into it and everyone was expecting great things ...and lo and behold we have had 90 percent of pruced up ps4 games and the next gen games stumbling to achieve 1080p with atrocious image quality and inconsistent framerates.

The hardware definitely has its limits and was never going to achieve the rrailer visuals but teh devs have really dropped the ball in terms of ambition and optimization efforts. Look at the ps3 gen devs were working overtime to overcome the limitations and weaknesses of the machines. Sonys ice team did wonders withe spes in the cell came up with so many new techniques like mlaa etc....this gen everyine wants to take the easy way out.

 

[HighPoly]

Yes they literally said that something close to the scale and general level of the trailer was achivable and that the rebirth demos visuals would be common place and will be surpassed quickly into the gen. Even I bought into it and everyone was expecting great things ...and lo and behold we have had 90 percent of pruced up ps4 games and the next gen games stumbling to achieve 1080p with atrocious image quality and inconsistent framerates.

The hardware definitely has its limites but teh devs have really dropped the ball interms of ambition and optimization efforts. Look at the ps3 gen devs were working overtime to overcome the limitations and weaknesses of the machines. Sonys ice team did wonders withe spes in the cell came up with so many new techniques like mlaa etc....this gen everyine wants to take the easy way out.

I think the problem is called resolution!
They are always trying to push the limits of Resolution!
I mean, we're not running native 4k, not even RTX 4090 when set Ultra and Path Tracing...

Well, Rumors said PS5 PRO will make 23 Teraflops, so I believe in 40 or 50teraflops on PS6 FAT.
If they choose for 1440p or 1800p 30~60fps, yeah, sure! We'll touch PS360 CGi level...
But I'm saying PS360!!! not PS4ONE era... Like, Assassins Creed Unity CGi(impossible), as you can see!



Much more like FFXIII CGi level!

 

[SABRE220]

I think the problem is called resolution!
They are always trying to push the limits of Resolution!
I mean, we're not running native 4k, not even RTX 4090 when set Ultra and Path Tracing...

Well, Rumors said PS5 PRO will make 23 Teraflops, so I believe in 40 or 50teraflops on PS6 FAT.
If they choose for 1440p or 1800p 30~60fps, yeah, sure! We'll touch PS360 CGi level...
But I'm saying PS360!!! not PS4ONE era... Like, Assassins Creed Unity CGi(impossible), as you can see!



Much more like FFXIII CGi level!

Lets see if even the ps6 achieves those assasins creed 2 visuals, no one is expecting them to achieve ps4 era visuals those would legit need atleast 2 to three generations. Even seeing ps3 era chi visuals would be a sight to behold but seeing the output and dwindling ambition and hunger from devs im not hopeful.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Cyberpunk’s graphics were a real victory for artists.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

not even close.

 

[HighPoly]

Lets see if even the ps6 achieves those assasins creed 2 visuals, no one is expecting them to achieve ps4 era visuals those would legit need atleast 2 to three generations. Even seeing ps3 era chi visuals would be a sight to behold but seeing the output and dwindling ambition and hunger from devs im not hopeful.

if you make the math, we could be playing and running PS360 cgi level today, but the problem is always higher resolutions and today the ray tracing...
I mean, if these consoles were made to run 1080p 30fps without ray tracing, I think we could get something not exactly but pretty near to that CGi levels...
So in my mind, I think the next gen consoles are the right time to that!
I mean, the jump from PS4 to PS5 were short, we're basically running better resolutions, 60fps sometimes and ray tracing... The poligonal density or higher textures are not the special increase in this current generation, anyway...

Well, I hope AMD make it's own concept of Path Tracing, and if the next consoles bring us around 40TF or 50TF, we'll probably see what I'm expecting for a long time.
But again, it depends on what resolution games will run, and what kind of Framerate, or even ray tracing technologies will be working in this future...

Take a look:

PS2 runs some simple PS1 CGi in real time
PS3 runs the higher technologic PS1 CGi in real time.
PS4 started to make some PS2 CGi in real time, at the ending of the gen, specially with PS4 PRO.
PS5 runs some specific PS2 CGi in real time, and PLUS! Ray Tracing! that is something so unbelievable back in time!

 

[HighPoly]

not even close.

Well, the PS2 CGi ?
come on, Forbidden West is a breaking edge!

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

The Order 1886 tried hard for a "CGI you can play" look and everyone crapped on it, so we never got a sequel.

 

[Danjin44]

The Order 1886 tried hard for a "CGI you can play" look and everyone crapped on it, so we never got a sequel.

For a good reason, at end of the day it’s need deliver on the actual game, graphics can’t and shouldn’t be the only selling point.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

For a good reason, at end of the day it’s need deliver on the actual game, graphics can’t and shouldn’t be the only selling point.

Except there was nothing wrong with the gameplay, the gunplay was both more engaging and fun than Uncharted 1, yet UC1 got a pass and spawned a long running series yet The Order had to stop at 1, not fair.

 

[HighPoly]

The Order 1886 tried hard for a "CGI you can play" look and everyone crapped on it, so we never got a sequel.

JESUS!
This game is amazing to me!
I mean, the characters and the Lore... So I believe Sony will try again, a sequel

 

[Danjin44]

Except there was nothing wrong with the gameplay, the gunplay was both more engaging and fun than Uncharted 1, yet UC1 got a pass and spawned a long running series yet The Order had to stop at 1, not fair.

This game was so linear that I couldn’t choose what weapon I could use or even if character could run or not and it game about hunting monster but we barely fought any monsters other than that crappy werewolf fight which they reused again for final fight….meanwhile in same year we got another Victorian era game when fight actual monsters and had more guns even tho it wasn’t shooter.

People can’t be desperate for graphics and take any crappy gameplay as long as it has graphics.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Well, the PS2 CGi ?
come on, Forbidden West is a breaking edge!

no, not even close, but you'd actually have to understand the difference between real-time and offline rendering to see why.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

This game was so linear that I couldn’t choose what weapon I could use or even if character could run or not and it game about hunting monster but we barely fought any monsters other than that crappy werewolf fight which they reused again for final fight….meanwhile in same year we got another Victorian era game when fight actual monsters and had more guns even tho it wasn’t shooter.

People can’t be desperate for graphics and take any crappy gameplay as long as it has graphics.

I won't say Bloodborne isn't the better game, The Order still got way too much hate though, lore wise and world building wise, it's way more interesting than anything coming out of the western hemisphere today.

It deserved a second chance, some games need a dry run, which is why I compared it to Uncharted, the first game was basically just a dry run for 2, which is where it really got good, but people had treated Uncharted 1 like they treated The Order, it never would have happened.

 

[HighPoly]

no, not even close, but you'd actually have to understand the difference between real-time and offline rendering to see why.

ok I KNOW the diferences... Pre render and real time redering, the hour per frame in a pre rendering...
But the magic is imagine how far games have come!

Are we able to run CGi level using UE4, UE5? this is the magical thing to imagine, you understand?

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Are we able to run CGi level using UE4, UE5?

no, not even close.

 

[Danjin44]

I won't say Bloodborne isn't the better game, The Order still got way too much hate though, lore wise and world building wise, it's way more interesting than anything coming out of the western hemisphere today.

It deserved a second chance, some games need a dry run, which is why I compared it to Uncharted, the first game was basically just a dry run for 2, which is where it really got good, but people had treated Uncharted 1 like they treated The Order, it never would have happened.

I played the game I didn't see anything special about this game other than idea hunting monsters in Gothic Victorian era which this game didn't deliver on that......AT VERT LEAST they could have let us fight god damn vampire for final boss since they were teasing about it but noooooooo let just reused that same awful werewolf...no I'm sorry it was even actual werewolf, it was half-breed....fuck me!

Edit:Let me remind you even in Uncharted 1 it had monsters we fight later on .....even fucking Uncharted.

 

[HighPoly]

no, not even close.

you so beautiful, I think the nostalgic aspect make everything hard
One element of those CGi were the low res textures, and the higher geometric poligons
it's a little bit difficult to compare graphics made today with pre render graphics made in 2003, because of the artistc concepts
anyway
I prefer what we can make real today, than what we found interesting before...
AH!!! let me show you something




I don't even know if I'm doing a right comparison or speeching, but the first one is SH2 in UE5, and below the old Pre Rendering CGi from original SH2
Well, as you see the AA in the CGi is higher, and some elements like cloth physics, but the textures, animations and details in general are lower quality

The most interesting thing is the lighting, that stills ''CGi like'', even today.

 

[Larxia]

Yep, that's exactly why I hope more studios would put efforts in mastering this kind of tech instead of simply going the Rockstar route of perfect looking animations featuring extreme latency/lack of control/impaired visual feedback.

I mean, what do you even want to do about it? If a game has realistic, anatomically based animations, with realistic physics, you can't have a responsive gameplay.
Imagine you're running forward, then suddenly you decided to do a 180 and run the other way, if you have realistic animation, you need to wait for all the animations to transition properly, allowing for a realistic turn, while if you have a less realistic game, you can do it almost instantly by having less realistic blending between all animations.

The only way to not have input lag is to let player cancel animations, the more animations you have, the more transition time you need and the less responsive it gets, there's no magic fix I think, the only way to fix it would be for the game to time travel and know your intentions beforehand.

 

[HighPoly]

no, not even close.

I mean, I'm trying to make a kind of standard, in this discussion

Cause if we never supassed that old CGi graphics, we'll NEVER end that old discussion about Toy Story 1 graphics, you know?

even in PS9 guys will tell you that we could never play a game with the same graphics, I mean, that old PLASTIC cgi graphics...
and I'm not saying that we have some amazing geometric objects in games today, as Woody or Buzz used to be, and got prettier when you watch on your 8k TV and Disney Plus App today!

But come on, textures, ray tracing, particles and amazing elements today are by far prettier... And Toy Story 1 dindn't even use Ray Tracing!

Well, take a look at that older Spider Man 2 CGi on PS2, in comparison to Spider Man 2 on your PS5 today

 

[magnumpy]

I get the "IMHO", but isn't this a bit too harsh when we already have Rogue City running at 60fps on consoles?
That game is already more than "close" for long stretches of gameplay and it's a budget title with last gen character models and even more outdated facial animations.
Another gen and we'll be there, have faith in Unreal Engine 5 and RT when they are apparently delivering this from nobodies and unknown budget:

*snip*

even if you take the best of what UE5 has shown us, you don't think games will look even better in 10 years? or is this simply the best thing thats humanly possible forever?

 

[THE DUCK]

The guy who founded the Galloping Ghost arcade made his own MK-like fighter over the course of 20 years. It unfortunately still didn't turn out great IMO, but it's interesting how it came about and was refined/refilmed over the years.



The Bikini Karate Babes games are what they are, but the resolution and movement is surprisingly not shit. (It's mostly alpha-keyed video with hitboxes triggering transitions, but it seems to work not too bad.)


(There was another of these HD 2D MK-style digitized fighters being made not too long ago, I'm not sure what happened to it but I think it never released?)

Rethinking 2D graphics seems hard to conceive what else there would be. We have sprites, and I don't think those have changed much except resolution, color depth, and manipulation over the years. (You kind of don't want sprites to change, as the specific quality of sprites designed for the exact display pixels is its own virtue, even if you do kind of want it to stretch and spin and whatnot.) We have digitized graphics, but that's just live-action pixels; same for "ACM" CGI-to-2D graphics like DKC. Then you have vector graphics, which allow great fidelity and flexibility since you're describing motion of color and lines rather than individual pixels, but lots of people don't actually like the look of vector graphics when animated (too fluid, and associated with cheap games) unless it's done spectacularly well. "HD-2D" where 2D is augmented with 3D and other modern effects such as lighting and motion blur is cool IMO but some people are bothered by it and it can go too far into "Is this still 2D?" territory. And all of this is affected by cost and talent, as it takes handmade work (or an AI trained on what's already good) to make real 2D graphics, whereas 3D has a lot of technical systems in order to go beyond the human production input. It could happen, but I can't think of something on the horizon besides maybe AI that could tween animation in a way we're wanting here.



(Storage and IO used to be a problem here, as adding a ton of extra animations/frames and putting lots of alternate cycles melding in and out of animation frames for switches of movement or action would build up a ton of big graphics to store and pull from; now with SSDs and gigabytes of EXEs, probably you're not so worried about hitting a max. I'd actually be curious what would happen if somebody did make a 2D game optimized for today's fast IO and just had as many sprite sheet sets as possible to sub between every other frame of major action animations?)

Thanks for the post, some pretty interesting stuff. I don't know exactly what's missing, like you said there's been a few ways people have tried to some success, but really zero that looks like real life.

It just feels like in 2023 we should be able to do this in 2 dimensions. I understand the enormous rendeting load in 3d, a ton of this could disappear if a new way of rendering 2d was developed.

 

[SimTourist]

I mean, I'm trying to make a kind of standard, in this discussion

Cause if we never supassed that old CGi graphics, we'll NEVER end that old discussion about Toy Story 1 graphics, you know?

even in PS9 guys will tell you that we could never play a game with the same graphics, I mean, that old PLASTIC cgi graphics...
and I'm not saying that we have some amazing geometric objects in games today, as Woody or Buzz used to be, and got prettier when you watch on your 8k TV and Disney Plus App today!

But come on, textures, ray tracing, particles and amazing elements today are by far prettier... And Toy Story 1 dindn't even use Ray Tracing!

Well, take a look at that older Spider Man 2 CGi on PS2, in comparison to Spider Man 2 on your PS5 today

The problem is that you are referencing cheap bad game CGI, which is not comparable to movie CGI of the time.
This is 2005 CGI and no, PS6 is not gonna produce these visuals, not even remotely close, and not PS7 either.

 

[HighPoly]

The problem is that you are referencing cheap bad game CGI, which is not comparable to movie CGI of the time.
This is 2005 CGI and no, PS6 is not gonna produce these visuals, not even remotely close, and not PS7 either.

Those CGi from movies are better than the recenlty PS5 CGi trailers, by far! So my point is about PS2 CGi in comparison to PS5 real time games...

Well in 2005, Square Enix made Final Fantasy Advent Children, and not even FF7 Rebirth is comparable to that... But that was a 2005's movie, not CGi from a game...

So, I'm focusing in CGi made specifically for games.

 

[SimTourist]

Those CGi from movies are better than the recenlty PS5 CGi trailers, by far! So my point is about PS2 CGi in comparison to PS5 real time games...

Well in 2005, Square Enix made Final Fantasy Advent Children, and not even FF7 Rebirth is comparable to that... But that was a 2005's movie, not CGi from a game...

So, I'm focusing in CGi made specifically for games.

I'm not sure what's the point of that, the CGI made for games was usually outsourced and done super cheap with no name studios/artists. Shit CGI is not hard to surpass.

 

[HighPoly]

I'm not sure what's the point of that, the CGI made for games was usually outsourced and done super cheap with no name studios/artists. Shit CGI is not hard to surpass.

The 90's or 2000's computer farms, achieved something we are able to do in a single Hardware today.
Like, 10 Teraflops were easy to achieve with high end CPUs in a render farm back at that time?? I don't really know man

And another important thing is how a single teraflop performed in those years.. Like, even today AMD and Nvidia Teraflops performs in diferent ways...
I mean, 1 Teraflop from Nvidia is not exactly the same performance of 1 Teraflops from AMD GPUs... Well, Teraflops are not the perfect metric to compare, anyway...

So, as I said. What could we need to make a render farm reach the same PS5 performance at that time? So based on that, I believe we have a small render farm in our bedrooms today.

 

[Lethal01]

Surely there is a new system that could generate a lifelike 2d image in 2023.
Someone just needs to think outside the "3d" game box.

what does that even mean

 

[HighPoly]

well I've been waiting this level for a long time...

and I'm not sure if FF7 Rebirth will make it real...
don't think so...

that's the case I think UE5 will need 40 or 50 Teraflops Console to make come true...

 

[Jaguar Victory]

Not gonna happen.

Animations are the biggest limiting factor. As are physics, collision detection, AI, environmental interactivity, lighting (still), and so many other things.

Animation is where I think we could see huge gains with AI.

 

[THE DUCK]

what does that even mean

It means thinking of a new way to render vs the typical "3d space" rendering that is taking place. It means starting from.sratch.

 

[lyan]

Outside of scripted camerawork sequences, never.

 

[HighPoly]

Outside of scripted camerawork sequences, never.

making a game that in real time gameplay you see cloth physics, hair physics, is something to the Next Gen console
Resident Evil 4 Remake tries to emulate those things on Leon hair, but we're only crawling...

My theory is that at the end of this generation engines will receive opdates to get cheaper and lighter to run on consoles, specially AMD hardwares...

So, if we get 50 Teraflops on PS6, and stills sub 4K 30~60fps, Advent Children will be our next benchmark...

Well, PS5 runs Matrix tech demo in real time, even though it's a scripted cutscene at the beginning.
The playable part is a diferent dialogue, cause of downgrades, but the starting of that tech demo is a pretty example of what a 10 Teraflops machine is able to calculate.

My bet is something playable with the same scripted level graphics from the starting of the tech demo, on PS6.

 

[SnapShot]

Aren't we already there? you want it to look as good (faked) as the scripted pre-baked trailer cinematics or cutscenes?

 

[lyan]

making a game that in real time gameplay you see cloth physics, hair physics, is something to the Next Gen console
Resident Evil 4 Remake tries to emulate those things on Leon hair, but we're only crawling...

My theory is that at the end of this generation engines will receive opdates to get cheaper and lighter to run on consoles, specially AMD hardwares...

So, if we get 50 Teraflops on PS6, and stills sub 4K 30~60fps, Advent Children will be our next benchmark...

Well, PS5 runs Matrix tech demo in real time, even though it's a scripted cutscene at the beginning.
The playable part is a diferent dialogue, cause of downgrades, but the starting of that tech demo is a pretty example of what a 10 Teraflops machine is able to calculate.

My bet is something playable with the same scripted level graphics from the starting of the tech demo, on PS6.

You can have a perfectly real behaving and looking game but the impact will still be inferior without someone directing the camera, and that act of directing contradicts with the way we play a game. Just like how those fancy gif twitter accounts make existing games look more interesting.

 

[Lethal01]

It means thinking of a new way to render vs the typical "3d space" rendering that is taking place. It means starting from.sratch.

So you are talking specifically about 2d games.
What kind of rendering would benefit 2d games specifically and make it look more realistic than 3d

 

[nkarafo]

Not gonna happen.

Animations are the biggest limiting factor. As are physics, collision detection, AI, environmental interactivity, lighting (still), and so many other things.

Add to that geometry detail. CGI movies pretty much have an unlimited polygon budget. I'm not sure if the most dense modern game today has reached Toy Story 1 levels yet.

 

[HighPoly]

I believe we're running PS2 CGi level graphics in real time...

There are two elements we need to advance in real time, when we look at those CGi.
These things are, Lighting made by a perfect Path Tracing, that only Nvidia's GPU can do...
And the second element is the Cloth Simulation/Physics...

Well, I imagine PS6 will surpass those two things by far! But the current generation, I don't know...
Maybe PS5 PRO?

 

[nkarafo]

The guy who founded the Galloping Ghost arcade made his own MK-like fighter over the course of 20 years. It unfortunately still didn't turn out great IMO, but it's interesting how it came about and was refined/refilmed over the years.



The Bikini Karate Babes games are what they are, but the resolution and movement is surprisingly not shit. (It's mostly alpha-keyed video with hitboxes triggering transitions, but it seems to work not too bad.)


(There was another of these HD 2D MK-style digitized fighters being made not too long ago, I'm not sure what happened to it but I think it never released?)

 

[CamHostage]

Yep ,seen some stuff like this. Is this from that "official" MK remaster or is this somebody's project? (I can't remember how much material actually came from that leak, does seem a shame it never happened although it probably would have created another Super SFII Turbo HD Remix debate situation...)

There's some interesting stuff being done by feeding frames into image AI systems and either replacing frames or motion-interpolating the tweens. Not everybody will like the results (and even if you like the look, AI sometimes needs to be carefully watched or it'll do its own thing; Sonia in the MK example below no longer has a headband because the AI didn't see it as part of the low-res sprite's design and assumed it was shadow and ponytail, but of course Sonia does has a headband,) but interesting nevertheless.





I still don't known that it ever adds up to anything equivalent to a "next generation of 2D" evolution even where it does work. It feels like more of the same to me, and more filler but no change of direction or approach. But it's still young tech, and there are a few things AI could do for 2D which would either be impossible or cost-prohibitive to do by traditional methods..

 

[THE DUCK]

So you are talking specifically about 2d games.
What kind of rendering would benefit 2d games specifically and make it look more realistic than 3d

I mean that's really the million dollar question I'm asking. Most of the tools and focus are on 3d rendering, with little to no focus or optimization on 2d.
Thinking we can be ahead of where we are, since 2d images could in theory at least, require far less rendering power to create something "realistic"

I throw this out to you as an aside on 3d (or 2d) as well. You watch an old TV show, and even though it's super low res, it looks "real"
All the focus we have is on resolution, 3d, frame rate, etc, and yet something very old (albeit real), can look real at a low resolution at a low frame rate.
So even at that, it would be intersting to see someone completely focus on a 3d game at 24 frames per second, at 480p, but that looks more lifelike.
It would be an interesting project for someone. Can something different be done?

 

[magnumpy]

I get the "IMHO", but isn't this a bit too harsh when we already have Rogue City running at 60fps on consoles?

That game is already more than "close" for long stretches of gameplay and it's a budget title with last gen character models and even more outdated facial animations.

Another gen and we'll be there, have faith in Unreal Engine 5 and RT when they are apparently delivering this from nobodies and unknown bu
dget:



I'd say this would be easily called CGI a few years ago.

a few years ago, sure. but we aren't talking about a few years ago, we're talking about right now. or better yet, think about how games will look a year from now, or 5 or 10 years from now!